# Another libertarian debate thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685 "2014-04-09T02:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/121 "2014-04-10T04:45:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The claim is that if you want to say Libertarian philosophy is not self-consistent, you can’t introduce definitions that Libertarians don’t accept. Why can’t I if I think that Libertarians are defining themselves misleadingly? Why do I need to accept their self-definitions at face value when there’s evidence those self-definitions aren’t true? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/122 "2014-04-10T04:47:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And what is someone who rejects your definition supposed to say? Come up with some evidence to show I’m wrong. Plenty of libertarians are telling me I’m wrong but none of them have produced any evidence to support it yet. (And variations of “because I say so” doesn’t count as credible evidence.) ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/123 "2014-04-10T05:45:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Come up with some evidence to show I’m wrong. Plenty of libertarians are telling me I’m wrong but none of them have produced any evidence to support it yet. (And variations of “because I say so” doesn’t count as credible evidence.) You’ve produced no evidence or citation to authority to show you’re right. Why should I accept your definitions? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/124 "2014-04-10T13:03:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Do Libertarians believe you have the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from someone else? Oh man, do I want to see the answer to this. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/125 "2014-04-10T13:10:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Oh man, do I want to see the answer to this. It’s impossible to answer his questions because he doesn’t define his terms and refuses to accept the definitions that other people use. I have no idea what he means when he uses the term “freedom”. Same for some of the other posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/126 "2014-04-10T13:12:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s impossible to answer his questions because he doesn’t define his terms and refuses to accept the definitions that other people use. Sorry, John, but that’s clearly bullshit. You all are just being utterly evasive. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/127 "2014-04-10T13:38:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sorry, John, but that’s clearly bullshit. You all are just being utterly evasive. No, he’s right. The answer to “Do Libertarians believe you have the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from someone else?” has to be “it depends”. Shoot, the answer to “Do non-Libertarians believe you have the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from someone else?” is also going to “it depends on what freedom is being threatened, and how”. Would you blindly say you, or your government, has the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from somebody else? Or would you say that it’s true in some cases but not others? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/128 "2014-04-10T13:45:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Sorry, John, but that’s clearly bullshit. You all are just being utterly evasive. I don’t accept the axioms of Euclidian Geometry. Now, your job is to show us a proof in Euclidian geometry and I’ll tell you why you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/129 "2014-04-10T14:04:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, he’s right. The answer to “Do Libertarians believe you have the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from someone else?” has to be “it depends”. Shoot, the answer to “Do non-Libertarians believe you have the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from someone else?” is also going to “it depends on what freedom is being threatened, and how”. > > Would you blindly say you, or your government, has the power to stop somebody from taking freedom from somebody else? Or would you say that it’s true in some cases but not others? And if we don’t agree on a definition of what “freedom” is, then how are going to agree on an answer to any generalized question about it? Heck, we have one poster here claiming there is a limited amount of freedom in the world and every time someone gains freedom, another person or group must lose at least an equal amount of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/130 "2014-04-10T14:24:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And if we don’t agree on a definition of what “freedom” is, then how are going to agree on an answer to any generalized question about it? Heck, we have one poster here claiming there is a limited amount of freedom in the world and every time someone gains freedom, another person or group must lose at least an equal amount of freedom. Then the correct response is to man up and say _“I disagree with that view. I think that there is an potentially unlimited amount of freedom in the world and we can create more freedom as needed. So no individual loses freedom because another individual gains it.”_ See? All you have to do is stand up and state what you believe. I did it in the OP and then I asked libertarians to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/131 "2014-04-10T14:29:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And if we don’t agree on a definition of what “freedom” is, then how are going to agree on an answer to any generalized question about it? But you were able to state this: > [@](#): > > Libertarians don’t believe that you have the freedom to take away freedom from someone else. How come you could make a clear and definitive statement about freedom then but somehow misplace the meaning of freedom minutes later? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/132 "2014-04-10T14:35:37Z")
They _invented_ the word, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/133 "2014-04-10T14:51:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But you were able to state this:How come you could make a clear and definitive statement about freedom then but somehow misplace the meaning of freedom minutes later? Because I’m using the definition that Libertarians use. I don’t know what definition you are using. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/134 "2014-04-10T15:04:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Then the correct response is to man up and say _“I disagree with that view. I think that there is an potentially unlimited amount of freedom in the world and we can create more freedom as needed. So no individual loses freedom because another individual gains it.”_ > > See? All you have to do is stand up and state what you believe. I did it in the OP and then I asked libertarians to do the same. Which is what several folks have been doing in this thread - and that you’ve dismissed. It’s pretty obvious that you attempted to present an example of some contradictions and have failed. Feel free to try again. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/135 "2014-04-10T15:43:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because I’m using the definition that Libertarians use. I don’t know what definition you are using. How do Libertarian’s define freedom? Is there such a thing as economic coercion in the Libertarian vocabulary? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/136 "2014-04-10T15:50:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Which is what several folks have been doing in this thread - and that you’ve dismissed. > > It’s pretty obvious that you attempted to present an example of some contradictions and have failed. Feel free to try again. Bull. This is what I’m seeing here. “I’m for freedom.” “Okay. Well, what happens when you have two conflicting freedoms? Person A wants to X and Person B wants to do Y. But obviously they can’t both do what they want. So which one is free to do what he wants?” “I’m for freedom.” “That doesn’t really answer the question.” “I gave you an answer. And I resent the fact that you asked me a question for which my answer is inadequate. I only want to answer easy questions that have easy answers.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/137 "2014-04-10T15:52:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because I’m using the definition that Libertarians use. What is the definition of freedom that Libertarians use? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/138 "2014-04-10T15:55:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Bull. This is what I’m seeing here. > > “I’m for freedom.” > “Okay. Well, what happens when you have two conflicting freedoms? Person A wants to X and Person B wants to do Y. But obviously they can’t both do what they want. So which one is free to do what he wants?” > “I’m for freedom.” > “That doesn’t really answer the question.” > “I gave you an answer. And I resent the fact that you asked me a question for which my answer is inadequate. I only want to answer easy questions that have easy answers.” Your questions were answered, on the first page, by me and by others. Color me perplexed at this belief that they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/139 "2014-04-10T16:03:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What is the definition of freedom that Libertarians use? Let’s see if the Libertarian definition matches up with any of these from the Oxford English Dictionary(first 10 only for brevity’s sake): [quote] From the Oxford English Dictionary: > [@](#): > > **freedom** , n. > Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈfriːdəm/ , U.S. /ˈfridəm/ > > I. The state or fact of being free from servitude, constraint, inhibition, etc.; liberty. > > 1. a. Exemption or release from slavery or imprisonment; = liberty n.1 1b.letter of freedom (now hist.): a document emancipating a slave. > b. Liberation from the bondage or dominating influence of sin, spiritual servitude, worldly ties, etc. > c. Exemption or release from the obligations of a contractual agreement; spec. release from a marriage, divorce. > 2. Nobility or generosity of character, magnanimity. > 3. The state or fact of not being subject to despotic or autocratic control, or to a foreign power; civil liberty; independence. > 4. a. The state of being able to act without hindrance or restraint; liberty of action. Freq. with to and infinitive. > b. As a count noun: a particular type of freedom (sense 4a), esp. when regarded as a right; a civil liberty. Usu. in pl. > 5. The fact of not being controlled by or subject to fate; the power of self-determination attributed to the will. > 6. Readiness or willingness to act; keenness, enthusiasm. > 7. The state of being free from a defect, encumbrance, disadvantage, etc. > 8. a. Frankness, openness, familiarity (in conversation or social interaction); outspokenness; (occas.) an instance of this. > b. The overstepping of due or customary bounds in speech or behaviour; undue familiarity; an instance of this, a liberty (esp. in to take the freedom (to do something). Now rare. > 9. Facility or ease in action or activity; absence of encumbrance or hindrance. > 10. Boldness or vigour in conception or execution, esp. of a literary or other artistic work; the fact of not strictly observing conventions of style or form. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685/140 "2014-04-10T16:14:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Bull. This is what I’m seeing here. > > “I’m for freedom.” > \*\*“Okay. Well, what happens when you have two conflicting freedoms? Person A wants to X and Person B wants to do Y. But obviously they can’t both do what they want. \*\*So which one is free to do what he wants?” > “I’m for freedom.” > “That doesn’t really answer the question.” > “I gave you an answer. And I resent the fact that you asked me a question for which my answer is inadequate. I only want to answer easy questions that have easy answers.” (my bold) This is where you’re going wrong. There is no conflict with libertarian principals in the bolded section. That’s why your questions in the OP are so crappy. Freedom, or liberty in the context of libertarian ideals does not mean the ability or freedom to do whatever one wants. Do you understand that? You’ve failed to present any example where there is an actual conflict. I tried to guide you where there may actually be conflict - various externalities and such but for some reason you seem fixated on your poorly crafted questions in the OP. It would be analogous to: **Person A** : I support a representative government where people get to vote and elect leaders. **Person B** : So I should be able to vote as many times as I want then, right? **Person A** : No, that’s not how it works nor is it what I was describing when I said ‘representative government’. **Person B** : Then you must not support a representative government because I define it as being able to vote more than you! (you are person B in this example). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-libertarian-debate-thread/685685.md?page=8)