# Another LOTR question - has ROTK spoiler **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 25, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972 "2003-12-25T05:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/1 "2003-12-25T05:27:37Z")
LOTR fans, I’d love to have your opinion on this one: Do you think Frodo told anyone that he failed at the end of the quest? Was Sam the only other person to know that Frodo claimed the ring for his own? I strongly feel that Frodo’s guilt, as well as his physical and psychological wounds, made it impossible for him to stay in Middle Earth. It also increased his bond with Sam, in a way. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/2 "2003-12-25T05:43:17Z")
I don’t know, but from my personal view, I’m sure he told Gandalf, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/3 "2003-12-25T05:43:18Z")
Tolkien discourses at length on Frodo’s failure in two letters, found on pp. 251-2 and pp. 325-33 in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_. The second, which quoting here at the necessary length would violate copyright, addresses your question, and gives a lot of insight into the psychology of Frodo, of Sam, and of the author who created them. (I apologize for giving you an off-board, off-Net reference, but it’s probably the only decent answer.) ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/4 "2003-12-25T05:46:07Z")
Uh, there you go. So much for my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![Gmork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f19dbf/32.png) [@Gmork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gmork)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/5 "2003-12-25T13:53:54Z")
Aww, beaten. I was gonna recommend exactly what Polycarp recommended. Consider this a shameless plug for his post. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/6 "2003-12-25T19:28:40Z")
Letter 246, one of **Polycarp’s** references, is online at [http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm) > [@](#): > > I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been - say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock. > > That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite another matter. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/7 "2003-12-26T17:51:40Z")
Thanks guys for the reference and the links. Think I’ll finally pick up the Letters book from the library this weekend. Tho the author is the ultimate arbiter indeed, I’m still interested in what other readers/viewers felt about Frodo’s situation. I read a lovely essay comparing Frodo’s plight to that of war survivors with post-traumatic stress syndrome, survivor guilt, battle fatigue. I’ll try to dig up the link if anyone’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/8 "2003-12-26T21:09:29Z")
What if Frodo had actually _kept_ the ring, and it was never destroyed? Would Frodo have become the Grand Dictator of Middle Earth? What would his power have been? Could a little hobbit have become an evil conquerer? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/9 "2003-12-26T21:18:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*What if Frodo had actually _kept_ the ring, and it was never destroyed? Would Frodo have become the Grand Dictator of Middle Earth? What would his power have been? Could a little hobbit have become an evil conquerer? \*\* No. He was not powerful enough to harness the power of the Ring. Sauron would have quickly captured him and took it from him. Recall the scene when he put the ring on at Mount Doom, and the Nazgul immediately dropped everything they were doing and raced towards the Ring. If Gollum didn’t intervene and bite off Frodo’s finger Middle Earth would be doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/10 "2003-12-26T21:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*What if Frodo had actually _kept_ the ring, and it was never destroyed? Would Frodo have become the Grand Dictator of Middle Earth? What would his power have been? Could a little hobbit have become an evil conquerer? \*\* > [@](#): > > It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring…But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. - JRRT, Letter 246 Tolkien goes on to describe how it would have taken much time before Frodo could have used the Ring to dominate the wills of others, and that in the meantime the Nazgul would have lured him away from Sammath Naur (likely by pandering to Frodo’s conceit) in order to remove the immediate danger of the destruction of the ring, and then waited for Sauron himself to arrive. This, the author states, would have destroyed Frodo utterly. Of those in Middle Earth, only Gandalf (and presumably Saruman prior to being cast down by Gandalf) might have been able to defeat Sauron by using the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/11 "2003-12-26T23:31:43Z")
Sauron certainly feared that Aragorn could defeat him by using the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/12 "2003-12-27T01:52:23Z")
Well, _I_ could have done, but September 1419 I was _sooo-ooo_ totally busy. ---
**Author:** ![Tallayan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Tallayan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tallayan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/13 "2003-12-27T03:44:21Z")
Galadriel seems like she might have been able to as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/14 "2003-12-27T04:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tallayan \* > \*\*Galadriel seems like she might have been able to as well. \*\* From the same letter: > [@](#): > > Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of hte Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the ‘Mirror of Galadriel’, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power…In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron; they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engings of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. Tolkien thought that Gandalf with the Ring vs Sauron, one on one, would have been a close thing, since the Ring belonged to Sauron regardless of who held it. I submit that no one else in Middle Earth should be reckoned more powerful than Gandalf, barring, as I mentioned, Saruman before his downfall and Sauron himself. That would imply that no one else could have done it. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question-has-rotk-spoiler/220972/15 "2003-12-27T16:17:28Z")
Aragorn, I’m sure, would have taken the generals and armies route.