# Another LOTR Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 20, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893 "2020-03-20T14:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/21 "2020-03-23T18:57:20Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Their great power is fear. Fear and surprise. Surprise and fear… > Their two great powers are fear and surprise… and the Morgul-knife… > Their **three** powers are fear, surprise, and the Morgul-knife… and an almost fanatical devotion to Sauron… They’ll come in again. > [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > A woman protecting (or avenging) her father… Uncle. > [@Chronos](#): > > It makes sense to fear Aragorn. No matter what he’s armed with, he’s the single greatest badass alive in Middle-Earth… Among Men, perhaps, even probably. But Sauron, Gandalf, Elladan, Elrohir, Legolas etc. might beg to differ if you’re talking about everyone alive at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/22 "2020-03-24T13:33:11Z")
Well, Gandalf is powerful, but he’s not exactly a “badass”. His power manifests in different ways. As for the elves, well, it’s not the years, it’s the mileage. Sure, they’re a lot older than him, but they’ve spent most of that time sitting around and being emo, while Aragorn has been struggling to survive every day for like 70 years. Think back to _The Hobbit_, when Gandalf is considering ways to deal with Smaug. Slaying him was one option, but that would take a Hero, and he wasn’t even sure if there were any of those left in the world. This, despite visiting all three of the elves you mention en route to the Lonely Mountain. And then, the dragonslayer still turns out to be a human. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/23 "2020-03-24T19:06:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It makes sense to fear Aragorn. No matter what he’s armed with, he’s the single greatest badass alive in Middle-Earth. The better question is, why did they fear Farmer Maggot and his dogs? > > It gets back to what **Capn Carl** said. Their main weapon is fear. And it’s a very potent weapon indeed: They can singlehandedly turn battles with that weapon. But what’s the response of a sensible tactician, on finding that your main weapon is ineffective? They should, rationally, be wary of anyone who can withstand their fear. > > But it goes beyond that, because it’s not rational. Fear is such a fundamental part of their nature that, where they should be feeling wariness, they instead feel terror, the sheer, unreasoning terror that they (usually) instill in their victims. > > Aragorn is, of course, brave, as well a badass like him should be. It ain’t boasting if you can back it up. But Farmer Maggot is likewise brave, in his own way, at least when defending his home, his family, his guests, and his neighbors. And the Nazgul can’t withstand that courage. I think this is a compelling argument but it still feels like a bit of a crutch. Some extra exposition in the books would have been helpful on this point. At least if the Nazgul had more noticeably flinched or something it wouldn’t raise so may questions. I certainly don’t buy the “deathly afraid of fire” line and the heir of Isuldur thing while meaningful isn’t a shield. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/24 "2020-03-24T19:20:02Z")
Oh, yeah, I agree that they’re not deathly afraid of fire. It’s something that _can_ be used against them, but then, it’s something that can be used against ordinary mortals, too. Aragorn used a torch because that’s what he had. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/25 "2020-03-25T16:23:28Z")
Tolkien was very consciously writing in a mytho-poetic mode. The foundations of Reality in Middle-Earth are literally Myth and Poetry (it was sung into existence). Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Heir of Isildur, and the True King of the Numenoreans, Stood atop Weathertop, in Defiance of Fear and Despair, in Defense of the Innocent and in Defense of Hope, in a Place That Was of Old a Stronghold of His People. In Middle-Earth, those are Truths that have Power. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/26 "2020-03-25T17:45:16Z")
That said, the Nazgul weren’t _invulnerable_ either. Either enough injury or possibly just damaging their robes could rob them of their form in some fashion, hence why they had to creep back to Mordor like shadows after getting (literally) stomped by a raging river. They were ambushed and wounded and quite possibly didn’t even entirely realize it was just one guy. Withdrawal probably seemed like the best option, given that they now had a very accurate bead on the ring-bearer. They might not be killable, but that didn’t make them unstoppable. Plus, one small element about Tolkein is that evil is _cowardly_. Though it might not seem so at first because so many evil characters love violence, they’re also bullies and unable to risk anything in a real battle. the only reason they fight except when circumstances favor them heavily is when good forces the matter, or they realize that they drastically underestimate their opponent. It’s unclear when, or if, the Balrog realized he had bitten off a lot more than he could chew, but he spent a three day battle with Gandalf running for his miserable life. Gollum, while under the influence of the Ring, was only capable of treachery and strikes from hiding. Orcs on multiple occasions proved unable to stand up the moment they were intimidated. Ungoliant never tried anything except to ambush isolated orcs in a thousand years. Even Sauron spent the whole story hiding in his tower, when his presence might well have turned the tide of battle - and in the first place lost the ring because the Last Alliance marched into Mordor and gave him no choice. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/27 "2020-03-25T19:11:44Z")
I have a question about a scene out of “Five Armies” I recently watched. Gandalf is sick/dying being held prisoner in a cage. Then a woman elf shows up to help him. They are surrounded by ghosts who are trying to kill them. Something about 7 and 3 and more about rings (I think). Then another elf and wizard to the rescue. How many goddamn rings were there? I thought the last one was destroyed in previous books/movies. Or is 5 armies supposed to be a prequel? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/28 "2020-03-25T19:23:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have a question about a scene out of “Five Armies” I recently watched. Gandalf is sick/dying being held prisoner in a cage. Then a woman elf shows up to help him. They are surrounded by ghosts who are trying to kill them. Something about 7 and 3 and more about rings (I think). Then another elf and wizard to the rescue. How many goddamn rings were there? I thought the last one was destroyed in previous books/movies. Or is 5 armies supposed to be a prequel? The 3 Hobbit movies (were an atrocity) were prequels. There were Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. There were also lesser rings, but those were the 20 major rings. Sauron helps with the making of the 9 for men & 7 for Dwarves but the Elven Ring were untouched by him and Sauron alone forged the one ring. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/29 "2020-03-25T19:56:02Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have a question about a scene out of “Five Armies” I recently watched. Gandalf is sick/dying being held prisoner in a cage. Then a woman elf shows up to help him. They are surrounded by ghosts who are trying to kill them. Something about 7 and 3 and more about rings (I think). Then another elf and wizard to the rescue. How many goddamn rings were there? I thought the last one was destroyed in previous books/movies. Or is 5 armies supposed to be a prequel? The Female Elf was Galadriel, who had one of the Elf Rings and possibly the most powerful person on Middle earth, short of Sauron himself. Also assisting was Saruman the White, before he got turned, and Elrond- who had one of the other Elf rings, as did Gandalf. Aka The White Council, if you add in Radagast and maybe Glorfindel. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/30 "2020-03-25T20:06:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Female Elf was Galadriel, who had one of the Elf Rings and possibly the most powerful person on Middle earth, short of Sauron himself. > > Also assisting was Saruman the White, before he got turned, and Elrond- who had one of the other Elf rings, as did Gandalf. > > Aka The White Council, if you add in Radagast and maybe Glorfindel. Almost surely Glorfindel and probably Cirdan the Shipwright who was a member of the White Council. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/31 "2020-03-25T20:13:42Z")
My question is- what happened to the Nine Rings? Between the second fall of Sauron at Dagorlad - and the destruction of the One? In one part of LotR is it intimated that they wear them, in another that Sauron does. Ok, if Sauron does- how did he get them? He was formless as The Necromancer after Ilisdur cut the One off his hand. But in the Hobbit film the Nine were apparently imprisoned. Ok, but why lock them in with their rings? Sauron certainly didnt have them. And since two of the Seven were destroyed, why not just destroy the Nine? And yes, the Nine Rings were necessary to make the Nazgul and keep them around, otherwise other greedy for power human would have picked up and worn one of the nine and beca=ome a Ringwraith, but no- there are exactly Nine. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/32 "2020-03-25T20:15:02Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Almost surely Glorfindel and probably Cirdan the Shipwright who was a member of the White Council. Yes, Glorfindel- but Cirdan gave up his Ring to Gandalf as Cirdan want to concentrate on his duties to send Elves to the West. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/33 "2020-03-25T20:17:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Female Elf was Galadriel, who had one of the Elf Rings and possibly the most powerful person on Middle earth, short of Sauron himself. I don’t know if I would quite go that far. She was strong, yes, but there were stronger and older beings. Her power lay more in sight, or concealment from it, of present and future. I’m not entirely certain she had the same power as Cirdan or even Celeborn if it came down to it, who had been actively and personally defending their homes for several eons. Of course, she was more than just clever - she was 100% Grade-A Accept-No-Substitutes _Wise_. She survived basically all of history, and had many mystical gifts of sight at her hand. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/34 "2020-03-25T20:22:59Z")
[quote=“What\_Exit, post:28, topic:849893”] The 3 Hobbit movies (were an atrocity) were prequels./QUOTE] I agree 1 and 2 weren’t real good, but I thought the third one was a lot of fun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/35 "2020-03-25T20:25:41Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t know if I would quite go that far. She was strong, yes, but there were stronger and older beings. Her power lay more in sight, or concealment from it, of present and future. > > I’m not entirely certain she had the same power as Cirdan or even Celeborn if it came down to it, who had been actively and personally defending their homes for several eons. Of course, she was more than just clever - she was 100% Grade-A Accept-No-Substitutes _Wise_. She survived basically all of history, and had many mystical gifts of sight at her hand. Like whom? Oh yeah, we forget Celeborn (Hard C, remember) he’d be on the White Council also. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/36 "2020-03-25T20:36:06Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t know if I would quite go that far. She was strong, yes, but there were stronger and older beings. Her power lay more in sight, or concealment from it, of present and future. > > I’m not entirely certain she had the same power as Cirdan or even Celeborn if it came down to it, who had been actively and personally defending their homes for several eons. Of course, she was more than just clever - she was 100% Grade-A Accept-No-Substitutes _Wise_. She survived basically all of history, and had many mystical gifts of sight at her hand. At the end, Galadriel had the power to throw down the walls of Dol Guldur through her “Sorceries”. With the Ring of Air she kept Lothlórien nearly timeless or at least somewhat out of time. Her pool rivaled the powers of the Palantir. She was an Elf of the Light, Granddaughter of Finwë and a student of Melian. she was more powerful than Celeborn or Elrond. But Cirdan is tricky, he was possibly among the very first Elves to be born. Glorfindel is also tricky, another Elf of the Light, a Captain of Gondolin that died killing a Balrog but was sent back to help by the Valar themselves. However, Galadriel was not as powerful as the Wizards or Sauron. These were all Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/37 "2020-03-25T22:51:04Z")
Galadriel wasn’t as powerful as Sauron, but I wouldn’t be certain comparing her to the Wizards, who, remember, were all limited to far below their natural levels of power. Of course, both she and Gandalf were wise enough not to settle the question conclusively. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/38 "2020-03-25T22:54:29Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > However, Galadriel was not as powerful as the Wizards or Sauron. These were all Maiar. It seems to me that Galadriel was not as hampered in the power she dare use or display in Middle Earth as the Istari were. Even though technically most of the elves’ power was so to speak “soft” power; but she was someone whom nature itself would happily do a favor or three if she asked. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/39 "2020-03-26T12:04:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Galadriel wasn’t as powerful as Sauron, but I wouldn’t be certain comparing her to the Wizards, who, remember, were all limited to far below their natural levels of power. Of course, both she and Gandalf were wise enough not to settle the question conclusively. > [@Lumpy](#): > > It seems to me that Galadriel was not as hampered in the power she dare use or display in Middle Earth as the Istari were. Even though technically most of the elves’ power was so to speak “soft” power; but she was someone whom nature itself would happily do a favor or three if she asked. That’s fair, as the Wizards, Galadriel was probably more powerful but back in their true nature, the Wizards would be. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/40 "2020-03-26T21:15:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The 3 Hobbit movies (were an atrocity) were prequels. There were > > Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, > Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, > Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, > One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne > In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. > One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, > One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them > In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. > There were also lesser rings, but those were the 20 major rings. Sauron helps with the making of the 9 for men & 7 for Dwarves but the Elven Ring were untouched by him and Sauron alone forged the one ring. At the Council of Elrond (IIRC), Elrond accounts for all the major rings. The 9 are held by the Nazgul, the 3 he knows about (but doesn’t go into detail). He says the 7 dwarf rings are all either returned to Sauron or consumed by dragons. Ergo, Frodo’s must be The _Ash Nazg._ It took me a long time to realize that dragons probably didn’t just eat the ring, but the dwarf that was wearing it at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893.md?page=3)