# Another LOTR Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 20, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893 "2020-03-20T14:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/41 "2020-03-26T22:28:57Z")
Presumably, though, Sauron could re-gift the dwarf-rings he’s reclaimed to other humans, and produce more Nazgul. The rings weren’t originally dwarvish or mannish, and in fact all of them were probably originally intended to be worn by elves. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/42 "2020-03-27T01:22:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Presumably, though, Sauron could re-gift the dwarf-rings he’s reclaimed to other humans, and produce more Nazgul. The rings weren’t originally dwarvish or mannish, and in fact all of them were probably originally intended to be worn by elves. I thought the Nine just made Nazgul. The Seven made greedy little bearded fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/43 "2020-03-27T01:41:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Presumably, though, Sauron could re-gift the dwarf-rings he’s reclaimed to other humans, and produce more Nazgul. The rings weren’t originally dwarvish or mannish, and in fact all of them were probably originally intended to be worn by elves. Well, altho that sounds good, apparently not, as Sauron didnt try, and in fact offered the Dwarves their rings back. So, where did Sauron get ahold of the Nine? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/44 "2020-03-27T02:07:19Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I thought the Nine just made Nazgul. The Seven made greedy little bearded fuckers. No. The Rings Sauron made affected beings according to their nature. Of humans, rings made Nazgul and of Dwarves they made greedier little fellows (the three Rings were made by the Elves, and so did not have the same effects) - but that’s the nature of humans and dwarves, not the nature of the rings, I think. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/45 "2020-03-27T02:38:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, altho that sounds good, apparently not, as Sauron didnt try, and in fact offered the Dwarves their rings back. > > So, where did Sauron get ahold of the Nine? The nine came willingly to the call of the one. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/46 "2020-03-27T02:43:02Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > No. The Rings Sauron made affected beings according to their nature. Of humans, rings made Nazgul and of Dwarves they made greedier little fellows (the three Rings were made by the Elves, and so did not have the same effects) - but that’s the nature of humans and dwarves, not the nature of the rings, I think. Oops. I shouldn’t have said “Sauron made” - Sauron only made the One Ring; the Elves made all the others - but Sauron was involved in the design of all of them and he made the One Ring using his knowledge of the others, so that the One Ring would rule the others. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/47 "2020-03-27T02:50:56Z")
It’s even in the poem! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/48 "2020-03-27T03:24:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But in the Hobbit film the Nine were apparently imprisoned. Ok, but why lock them in with their rings? Sauron certainly didnt have them. Your mistake is trying to make sense of _The Hobbit_ films.😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/49 "2020-03-27T03:26:09Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The nine came willingly to the call of the one. Sure, wearing their rings. But then Sauron got his ring chopped off and fell, lost his physical body. Ilisdur picked up the One. Where did the Nine rings go? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/50 "2020-03-27T03:34:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, wearing their rings. But then Sauron got his ring chopped off and fell, lost his physical body. Ilisdur picked up the One. Where did the Nine rings go? Ignoring any nonsense from the Hobbit movies (and I don’t recall what you are talking about, since I’ve tried to expunge them from my mind), why couldn’t the Nazgul have continued to wear them (presuming they were wearing them at the time)? They would have fled and hidden, but since the One Ring still existed they wouldn’t have discorporated as they did when it was destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/51 "2020-03-27T03:34:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Your mistake is trying to make sense of _The Hobbit_ films.😉 OK, sure. Lets do the books, and only the books. How did Sauron get the Nine rings back after the second fall of Sauron at Dagorlad, when Ilisdur cut the One off? Or did the Nine keep their rings until Sauron went back to Mordor? If so, how? I mean the Witch King was never struck down until Eowyn and Meriadoc took him out but clearly the other eight must have ben whupped somewhere along the line, and where did their rings go? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/52 "2020-03-27T03:42:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Ignoring any nonsense from the Hobbit movies (and I don’t recall what you are talking about, since I’ve tried to expunge them from my mind), why couldn’t the Nazgul have continued to wear them (presuming they were wearing them at the time)? They would have fled and hidden, but since the One Ring still existed they wouldn’t have discorporated as they did when it was destroyed. Assuming they were buried as depicted in the movies, would anyone have thought to remove the rings at that point? I don’t believe they were shown with the rings ‘on’ perse - but once they took the rings, they gave their service to Sauron, perhaps they gave the rings to him at that point - making the rings more of a symbol than a thing to be had? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/53 "2020-03-27T03:45:36Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Assuming they were buried as depicted in the movies, would anyone have thought to remove the rings at that point? I don’t believe they were shown with the rings ‘on’ perse - but once they took the rings, they gave their service to Sauron, perhaps they gave the rings to him at that point - making the rings more of a symbol than a thing to be had? According to a letter from Tolkien, there came a point when Sauron held onto the Rings “They would have obeyed . . . any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand — laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . . — The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien,” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/54 "2020-03-27T03:48:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Ignoring any nonsense from the Hobbit movies (and I don’t recall what you are talking about, since I’ve tried to expunge them from my mind), why couldn’t the Nazgul have continued to wear them (presuming they were wearing them at the time)? They would have fled and hidden, but since the One Ring still existed they wouldn’t have discorporated as they did when it was destroyed. Not talking about the Hobbit films, just the books. According to the books, Sauron wore the Nine at the time of LotR. That’s canon. Now when Sauron was defeated at the Dagorlad, and the One was cut off, he became formless. So, he didnt have them then. Or else Ilisdur would have picked up ten rings. That means the Ringwraiths must have have worn them since the second age indeed since 2259. In 3019 Sauron was destroyed. So how did they manage not to be taken out ever , and survive with their ring until about 2951, when i guess they handed over their rings to Sauron. Several dwarf rings were destroyed, and many were passed down, so what the heck happened to the Nine for some 700 years? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/55 "2020-03-27T03:54:57Z")
↑ “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past ↑ “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel > **[Nine Rings](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nine_Rings)** > > The Nine Rings were the Rings of Power that Sauron used to corrupt Men to his service. Those who took the Nine Rings became the Nazgûl.... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/56 "2020-03-27T03:57:33Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ↑ “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past > ↑ “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel > > [http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nine\_Rings](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nine_Rings) Good. Sauron had them. How did he get them? He didnt have them at Dagorlad, right? So how did the Nine keep their rings all those centuries when the dwarves couldnt? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/57 "2020-03-27T03:58:31Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > No. The Rings Sauron made affected beings according to their nature. Of humans, rings made Nazgul and of Dwarves they made greedier little fellows (the three Rings were made by the Elves, and so did not have the same effects) - but that’s the nature of humans and dwarves, not the nature of the rings, I think. All of the Rings save the One were made by Elves, and it’s both stated and implied they had different powers and uses for each race. The Three were never ‘sullied’ by Sauron somehow but the rest were targeted at each race according to, well, some formula the Elf smiths followed that we’re not privy to. What would happen if a man possessed a dwarf ring? I don’t think we can know. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/58 "2020-03-27T05:11:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So how did they manage not to be taken out ever , and survive with their ring until about 2951, when i guess they handed over their rings to Sauron. I’m sure a tale or several could be told about it, but they evidently weren’t jotted down.🙂 They went somewhere and laid doggo for a few centuries until Sauron became more powerful. > [@](#): > > Several dwarf rings were destroyed, and many were passed down, so what the heck happened to the Nine for some 700 years? As has been said, the rings had different effects on Men and Dwarves. The rings had evil effects on Dwarves, but they personally never came under the control of Sauron like the Nazgul did. Four were destroyed by dragons. It’s unclear how two came back to Sauron, but no doubt were taken by force from their owners after he was able to do so. It is known that Sauron took the last one from Thrain in Dol Goldur about TA 2850. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/59 "2020-03-27T13:08:14Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > All of the Rings save the One were made by Elves, and it’s both stated and implied they had different powers and uses for each race. The Three were never ‘sullied’ by Sauron somehow but the rest were targeted at each race according to, well, some formula the Elf smiths followed that we’re not privy to. What would happen if a man possessed a dwarf ring? I don’t think we can know. Yes. I blundered - I corrected my error a post or two later [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22213258&postcount=46](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22213258&postcount=46) I think the Rings enhanced the nature of bearer - humans with their hierarchies became great lords under the dominion of a greater, dwarves with their desire for material to form into great works became greedy (but not particularly ruleable). Had the Elvish ring-bearers worn their Rings while Sauron had the one, aspects of Elvish nature might have been enhanced into flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893/60 "2020-03-27T13:43:47Z")
Although Sauron was not directly involved in the making of the Three, they were still made using the basic Ring-lore Sauron had taught the Elves. That’s why they were still susceptible to the One Ruling Ring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-question/849893.md?page=4)