# Another LOTR thread - Sauron's appearance **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 15, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313 "2011-12-15T17:43:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/1 "2011-12-15T17:43:16Z")
I caught the beginning of the FotR movie again last night - for my money one of the best “the story so far” intros ever in a movie - and I got to wondering about Sauron’s appearance during the battle with the Last Alliance: Very large - maybe 12 feet tall or more tall, and proportionally large everywhere Completely covered in armor Helmet completely covers head and face Uses giant mace as weapon And I got to wondering if there was anything in the written canon that covers this. I re-read the book maybe a year ago, and I don’t remember anything that went into that level of detail. I seem to remember that by this time he was no longer able to dissemble a pleasant appearance, although I don’t think that was covered in LOTR either, but in some other book. Is there anywhere in print (written by Tolkien) where Sauron’s appearance during this period (late Second Age) is described? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/2 "2011-12-15T17:45:53Z")
[From the Encyclopedia or Arda:](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/sauronshape.html) > [@](#): > > Sauron was a Maia, and in his early career this meant that he had the ability to change shape at will: in the First Age, he seems to have had a generally human form (he’s variously described as smiling, laughing, standing and so on), though in his battle with Huan he was able to shift freely between the forms of a wolf, a serpent and a flying vampire. In the Second Age, during the time when the Rings of Power were made, he took on the semblance of a noble teacher. However, his shape-changing abilities were not limitless, and after the Downfall of Númenor they were severely curtailed: Perhaps this is somewhat useful. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/3 "2011-12-15T17:52:55Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > [From the Encyclopedia or Arda:](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/sauronshape.html) > > Perhaps this is somewhat useful. You might add that, after his body was destroyed in the Downfall and he had to make a new one from scratch, he was no longer able to assume a _fair_ – that is, physically beautiful – form. To me this implies two or three of things. One, that his Annatar form was quite handsome; two, that in Arda, external appearance is often (though not always a expression) of one’s inner being, and three, that his post-Numenor body was either ugly or terrifying, if not both. The seccond possibillity bugs me somewhat, but I see a way around it. I don’t think it’s so much that ugliness of spirit was always shown in the body, as it was that Sauron, diminished after his first flat-out physical death, was no longer able to assume any form he felt like, but rather was locked into a single appearance, and so chose to be a badass. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/4 "2011-12-15T17:53:08Z")
**Qadgop** or the other Tolkien scholars on this board will know more, but I don’t know of a specific description. In the Silmarillion, it says that Sauron’s current (at the time) form was destroyed in the Drowning of Numenor, and he could never again appear fair to the eyes of men. His spirit fled back to Mordor, retrieved the ring, and “dwelt there dark and silent, until he had wrought himself a new guise, an image of hatred and malice made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the terrible few could endure.” ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/5 "2011-12-15T18:15:22Z")
Silophant - great quote you found. I have nothing to add except the OP is right - Jackson did the opening ‘story thus far’ in FOTR very well. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/6 "2011-12-15T18:17:55Z")
> [@Silophant](#): > > **Qadgop** or the other Tolkien scholars on this board will know more, but I don’t know of a specific description. In the Silmarillion, it says that Sauron’s current (at the time) form was destroyed in the Drowning of Numenor, and he could never again appear fair to the eyes of men. His spirit fled back to Mordor, retrieved the ring, and “dwelt there dark and silent, until he had wrought himself a new guise, an image of hatred and malice made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the terrible few could endure.” I don’t think Sauron left the Ring in Mordor. I think he concealed it by ordering it to become invisible, and was able by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically when he left Numenor as a bodiless spirit. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/7 "2011-12-15T18:19:24Z")
Peter Jackson’s imagery actually describes Morgoth - Sauron’s Big Badd Boss very well, and it’s not illogical to assume that Sauron would adopt a similar form. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/8 "2011-12-15T19:58:51Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t think Sauron left the Ring in Mordor. I think he concealed it by ordering it to become invisible, and was able by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically when he left Numenor as a bodiless spirit. The quote in question says “There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur”, so it’s unclear. I think you’re probably right, though, since it’d be out of character for Sauron to leave the ring behind if he didn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/9 "2011-12-15T20:08:22Z")
At the bottom of the article Mahaloth linked to it says the following, which I believe is taken from one of Tolkien’s letters: > [@](#): > > Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. We don’t know much more than that. Gollum tells us he only has nine fingers. Even though he has re-generated his body, we can assume he was unable to re-grow the lost finger. IIRC, Tolkien did explain in another letter or essay why Morgoth and Sauron became tied to a single form, but I can’t remember the details now. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t think Sauron left the Ring in Mordor. I think he concealed it by ordering it to become invisible, and was able by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically when he left Numenor as a bodiless spirit. That is correct, and is answered more fully [here](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Numenor). ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/10 "2011-12-15T20:56:46Z")
Cool. I’d seen that site before, but I had forgotten about it. Bookmarked. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/11 "2011-12-15T21:51:17Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Peter Jackson’s imagery actually describes Morgoth - Sauron’s Big Badd Boss very well, and it’s not illogical to assume that Sauron would adopt a similar form. Ah, I think this is what I am looking for, because the appearance was familiar somehow but I couldn’t associate it with Sauron in my head. Where is there a description of Morgoth’s final physical form? I guess I could check out my Silmarillion. [QUOTE=Silophant] “until he had wrought himself a new guise, an image of hatred and malice made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the terrible few could endure.” [/QUOTE] So the Eye of Sauron as an entity pre-dates his defeat by Isildur? If he had a physical body, what form did the “Eye” take - I mean, was it in his head, like a cyclops, or was it outside of his body in some way? [QUOTE=Alka Seltzer] Gollum tells us he only has nine fingers. Even though he has re-generated his body, we can assume he was unable to re-grow the lost finger. [/QUOTE] This would have been in the 3rd age, after losing the ring and finger to Isildur. I was interested in his appearance in the 2nd age, specifically during his last battle there. But this quote is interesting to me because I thought, by then, that all Sauron could muster in terms of physical form was the great lidless eye. The only time Gollum would have had the chance to see Sauron was when he was being tortured in (I think) Minas Morgul. Surely Sauron has underlings to see to that sort of thing, and would satisfy himself by watching if necessary, for which he doesn’t need a body. I am puzzled. Is there a good 3rd party source to answer questions of this type? Maybe something online and searchable? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/12 "2011-12-15T22:06:49Z")
wait a minute here Skald. If Sauron, as you say, could “by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically” , couldn’t he have telekinetically retreived just about anytime? Like anytime a hobbit was in possession of it? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/13 "2011-12-15T22:12:59Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > wait a minute here Skald. If Sauron, as you say, could “by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically” , couldn’t he have telekinetically retreived just about anytime? Like anytime a hobbit was in possession of it? LotR isn’t a comic book. Sauron’s power wasn’t infinite in range. He could no more call the ring to him when they were hundreds of miles apart than Gandalf could create a fire without fuel. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/14 "2011-12-15T22:14:03Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > wait a minute here Skald. If Sauron, as you say, could “by his native power to carry it with him telekinetically” , couldn’t he have telekinetically retreived just about anytime? Like anytime a hobbit was in possession of it? When he completely lost his body, the Ring was still right there with him. He jut became a gust or a very thick cloud, or even floating debris, picked it up, and brought it along. When it lost the Ring, he didn’t know where it was. It was like a peice of his own body, but cut off and hidden. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/15 "2011-12-15T22:20:09Z")
Good point. THe way I see it, by the time of the quest, the Ring had become somewhat sentient. (We talked about this in a thread some years ago.) It had gathered more power to itself (maybe at Sauron’s expense), and was somewhat fickle. Sauron was reduced to having to “call for it” to come back. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/16 "2011-12-15T22:29:46Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The only time Gollum would have had the chance to see Sauron was when he was being tortured in (I think) Minas Morgul. Surely Sauron has underlings to see to that sort of thing, and would satisfy himself by watching if necessary, for which he doesn’t need a body. I am puzzled. Gollum was in Barad-dur, and I can well imagine that Sauron would want to be involved in the interrogation of some being that had had his Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/17 "2011-12-15T22:41:23Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > When he completely lost his body, the Ring was still right there with him. He jut became a gust or a very thick cloud, or even floating debris, picked it up, and brought it along. When it lost the Ring, he didn’t know where it was. It was like a peice of his own body, but cut off and hidden. Add to that the notion that, each time Sauron’s physical body died, he came back less physically powerful than before, because an unwilling discorporation means that he’d lose whatever mystical energy he had invested in that form. Thus he was at this mightiest midway through the Second Age, partly because he’d never actually died and partly because he had the added power the Ring provided through drawing on the Morgoth element in Arda (i.e., the power his master Melkor had dispersed into the physical world). When Sauron’s physical body died in Numenor, he was reduced somewhat, as he could not instantly create a new body; but he was still puissant enough to manipulate objects both physically and metaphyically close to him (i.e., the Ring), and it didn’t take him years on years to create a new body. (As written above, though, he had lost the ability to assume a fair form, which I take to mean he could no longer shift his shape at will, but rather was stuck in the first form he assumed, which was, for obviously reasons, the badass one). Nonetheless he was lessened. I don’t believe even Elendil and Gil-galad could have defeated him prior to the events of the Downfall, but afterwards he was more vulnerable. But at Mount Doom he was within their range (well, theirs and their helpers; I cannot but think that they were the _last_ two to contest him, not the _only_ two); and so when his physical body died there, not only did it take him much, much longer to reincorporate, but also he could no longer telekinetically manipulate the environment immediately, as he had been able to at Numenor. That is why Isildur was able to take the Ring. Put differently, if Sauron’s physical death at the hands of Elendil and Gil-galaad had been his first death, he’he might well have been able to retrieve the Ring before Ilsildur could take it. Bear in mind that the notion of Isildur cutting off all his right hand fingers off with a lucky shot is a Jacksonism. In the book, E & G defeat him and perish so doing, and Isildur cuts the Ring off Sauron’s corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/18 "2011-12-15T22:43:56Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > This would have been in the 3rd age, after losing the ring and finger to Isildur. I was interested in his appearance in the 2nd age, specifically during his last battle there. But this quote is interesting to me because I thought, by then, that all Sauron could muster in terms of physical form was the great lidless eye. Sorry, I’d missed that detail. As I understand it, other than the number of fingers Sauron’s appearance would have been identical at the end of the 2nd age to that at the end of the 3rd. In the book, Sauron definitely has a physical body at the time of the war of the ring. The eye of Sauron is a metaphor rather than his physical incarnation. It’s how Frodo percieves his search for him through the palantir when wearing the ring on Amon Hen. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The only time Gollum would have had the chance to see Sauron was when he was being tortured in (I think) Minas Morgul. Surely Sauron has underlings to see to that sort of thing, and would satisfy himself by watching if necessary, for which he doesn’t need a body. I am puzzled. > > Is there a good 3rd party source to answer questions of this type? Given that Gollum possessed the one ring, it’s not surprising Sauron questioned him in person, especially given his ability to dominate others. There is no need for a 3rd party source in this case, quoting Gollum in the Two Towers - “He has four on his black hand, but they are enough”. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/19 "2011-12-15T23:02:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Add to that the notion that, each time Sauron’s physical body died, he came back less physically powerful than before, because an unwilling discorporation means that he’d lose whatever mystical energy he had invested in that form. Yes, this seems to be the case. In the first age, Luthien threatens Sauron with the loss of his body, after he is defeated by Huan. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But at Mount Doom he was within their range (well, theirs and their helpers; I cannot but think that they were the _last_ two to contest him, not the _only_ two); and so when his physical body died there, not only did it take him much, much longer to reincorporate, but also he could no longer telekinetically manipulate the environment immediately, as he had been able to at Numenor. Elrond says otherwise. At the final combat, he says that only himself and Cirdan stood with Gil-Galad, and Isildur with Elendil. I don’t think there is a problem with this, very few could withstand the terror of the physical presence of Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/20 "2011-12-15T23:06:27Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Yes, this seems to be the case. In the first age, Luthien threatens Sauron with the loss of his body, after he is defeated by Huan. > > Elrond says otherwise. At the final combat, he says that only himself and Cirdan stood with Gil-Galad, and Isildur with Elendil. I don’t think there is a problem with this, very few could withstand the terror of the physical presence of Sauron. I’m not sure that contradicts me. I just meant that Sauron may well have fought others before getting to the last monomachy (duomachy?) with Elendil and Gil-galad. In other words he wasn’t in perfect condition. I can’t see two half-elves and a Dunedain taking out a Maia in fine fettle without somebody else – quite a number of somebody elses – softening up the Maia first. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313.md?page=2)