# Another LOTR thread - Sauron's appearance **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 15, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313 "2011-12-15T17:43:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/21 "2011-12-16T01:51:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure that contradicts me. I just meant that Sauron may well have fought others before getting to the last monomachy (duomachy?) with Elendil and Gil-galad. In other words he wasn’t in perfect condition. I can’t see two half-elves and a Dunedain taking out a Maia in fine fettle without somebody else – quite a number of somebody elses – softening up the Maia first. Right. The siege of Barad-dûr lasted for seven years. Sauron broke the siege by personally engaging in battle. He was finally brought to bay 30 miles away at Mt Doom. Which is where the duel took place. So presumably he had quite a workout fighting his way across those 30 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/22 "2011-12-16T05:45:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You might add that, after his body was destroyed in the Downfall and he had to make a new one from scratch, he was no longer able to assume a _fair_ – that is, physically beautiful – form. To me this implies two or three of things. One, that his Annatar form was quite handsome; two, that in Arda, external appearance is often (though not always a expression) of one’s inner being, and three, that his post-Numenor body was either ugly or terrifying, if not both. > > The seccond possibillity bugs me somewhat, but I see a way around it. I don’t think it’s so much that ugliness of spirit was always shown in the body, as it was that Sauron, diminished after his first flat-out physical death, was no longer able to assume any form he felt like, but rather was locked into a single appearance, and so chose to be a badass. I always figured that being smashed by the Valar was so metaphysically traumatic that it ripped away that aspect of his abilities; he was in a fair form at the time, and the ability to assume such a form was burned out of him. Or perhaps even the ability to even think in such terms; the later Sauron we are most familiar with doesn’t seem to make _anything_ “fair” anymore; everything he does and makes is blatantly evil and scary, not just his body. Perhaps he suffered what amounts to brain damage, he can’t assume a fair form because he can’t even imagine one anymore. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/23 "2011-12-16T15:23:59Z")
Hey Skald - just saw your reply to me (and have read the follow-ups). I KNOW LOTR is ‘not a comic book’. I was just not aware this supposed telekinetic power of Sauron’s before. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, not insulting fellow Tolkien fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/24 "2011-12-16T15:25:21Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Hey Skald - just saw your reply to me (and have read the follow-ups). I KNOW LOTR is ‘not a comic book’. I was just not aware this supposed telekinetic power of Sauron’s before. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, not insulting fellow Tolkien fanatics. **well, he’s back** , I should have phrased that differently. I was needlessly dismissive of you, and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/25 "2011-12-16T15:31:59Z")
thanks Skald. this is an interesting discussion. (better than what if there were black hobbits and Sam were black?) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/26 "2011-12-16T15:38:51Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > thanks Skald. this is an interesting discussion. (better than what if there were black hobbits and Sam were black?) 😕 Has anyody ever started such a thread,here or anywhere else? If the answer’s yes, don’t link unless it’s very old; I don’t feel like going into a rage. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/27 "2011-12-16T15:51:21Z")
don’t rage, Skald. Just referring too obliquely to something I saw on another board. and again, thanks for the apology - I was probably over sensitive but thanks anyhoo. am enjoying the Sauron discussion ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313/28 "2011-12-16T18:27:35Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > [From the Encyclopedia or Arda:](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/faq/sauronshape.html) > Sauron was a Maia, and in his early career this meant that he had the ability to change shape at will: in the First Age, he seems to have had a generally human form (he’s variously described as smiling, laughing, standing and so on), though in his battle with Huan he was able to shift freely between the forms of a wolf, a serpent and a flying vampire. In the Second Age, during the time when the Rings of Power were made, he took on the semblance of a noble teacher. However, his shape-changing abilities were not limitless, and after the Downfall of Númenor they were severely curtailed: He will come in one of the pre-chosen forms. During the rectification of the Vuldrini, the traveler came as a large and moving Torg! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-lotr-thread-saurons-appearance/606313.md?page=1)