# Another mass shooting in the US (Texas) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811 "2017-11-05T20:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/201 "2017-11-09T00:52:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t think it’s that rare at all. I have no obsession with trucks. Just a response to the poster who said it was easier to buy a truck than a gun. I’ve bought quite a few guns and have bought just one (a rifle from a friend) without a background check. The NRA estimates 15 percent and Mother Jones estimates 22 percent are private sales without background checks, so that appears to be the likely range. That’s higher than I expected. But that’s only private sales, mostly between friends. Otherwise, buying a gun is harder than buying a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/202 "2017-11-09T01:26:45Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I’ve bought quite a few guns and have bought just one (a rifle from a friend) without a background check. The NRA estimates 15 percent and Mother Jones estimates 22 percent are private sales without background checks, so that appears to be the likely range. That’s higher than I expected. > > But that’s only private sales, mostly between friends. Otherwise, buying a gun is harder than buying a truck. It seems to me that buying a gun is only “harder” if you purchase from a FFL, and not a private sale that seem to be abundant at gun shows. For various definitions of “harder” I guess. Filling out a form and waiting for a background check is not “hard” in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/203 "2017-11-09T01:45:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems to me that buying a gun is only “harder” if you purchase from a FFL, and not a private sale that seem to be abundant at gun shows. > > For various definitions of “harder” I guess. Filling out a form and waiting for a background check is not “hard” in my book. You seem focused on a need to make a screening process harder. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/204 "2017-11-09T01:56:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You seem focused on a need to make a screening process harder. You seem focused on making “filling out a form” and “waiting” as some insurmountable burden. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/205 "2017-11-09T01:59:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems to me that buying a gun is only “harder” if you purchase from a FFL, and not a private sale that seem to be abundant at gun shows. > > For various definitions of “harder” I guess. Filling out a form and waiting for a background check is not “hard” in my book. Are you getting your idea that there are “abundant” private sales at gun shows from personal experience or from reliable sources like Bloomberg and Soros? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/206 "2017-11-09T02:06:33Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Are you getting your idea that there are “abundant” private sales at gun shows from personal experience or from reliable sources like Bloomberg and Soros? Actually, I’m just guessing 🙂 I can attend one in Maryland this weekend for first hand knowledge if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/207 "2017-11-09T02:09:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You seem focused on making “filling out a form” and “waiting” as some insurmountable burden. I never said anything about an insurmountable burden. It’s pointless to throw these kinds of emotional responses into a discussion. I simple stated a fact. A gun requires a background check, a truck does not. Both make excellent weapons. I’ll add to that. It’s cheaper to rent a truck than it is buy a gun. In military terms that’s called asymmetric warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/208 "2017-11-09T02:13:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I never said anything about an insurmountable burden. It’s pointless to throw these kinds of emotional responses into a discussion. I simple stated a fact. A gun requires a background check, a truck does not. Both make excellent weapons. > > I’ll add to that. It’s cheaper to rent a truck than it is buy a gun. In military terms that’s called asymmetric warfare. What emotion? Not all gun purchases require a background check. And I maintain that a background check does not make legally purchasing a gun “hard”. And I imagine that you can’t walk into a dealership and buy a truck without filling out some paperwork. So both require paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/209 "2017-11-09T02:15:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Actually, I’m just guessing 🙂 > > I can attend one in Maryland this weekend for first hand knowledge if you want. Please do. I have been to at least a dozen, and I’ve never seen anyone buy a gun without a background check (and paying the required fee). I myself have bought a couple of guns at gun shows, and paid the fee and did the check every time. Now, I’m sure it happens, because it’s not illegal in some states if between private individuals. But, a pertinent question is how often such private sales result in prohibited people buying guns who later use them in crimes. Is there justification for why this is such a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/210 "2017-11-09T02:52:01Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Now, I’m sure it happens, because it’s not illegal in some states if between private individuals. But, a pertinent question is how often such private sales result in prohibited people buying guns who later use them in crimes. Is there justification for why this is such a big deal? I don’t care how often it happens. I care if it is possible. Because if so, the lamentations of people who proclaim how hard it is to purchase a gun in the US don’t concern me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/211 "2017-11-09T03:44:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What emotion? You used the word “insurmountable” and attributed it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/212 "2017-11-09T03:57:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You used the word “insurmountable” and attributed it to me. I don’t equate “insurmountable” with emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/213 "2017-11-09T04:40:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What if he shot YOUR family dead after you dialed 911 waiting for the police to arrive? That’s _exactly_ what I’m concerned about, a reckless vigilante shooting my family. You do realize the shooter had already exited the church when he was engaged? > [@Magiver](#): > > In reality what DID happen was that a private citizen stopped a mad man from killing more people including his MIL who was not present at the church. Pure speculation on your part. In reality what DID happen is a private citizen decided to overstep his right to self defense & put additional, innocent lives in jeopardy in his pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/214 "2017-11-09T05:57:16Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > You do realize the shooter had already exited the church when he was engaged? The account I read said that he walked up and down between the pews while speaking impolitely and shooting bullets at people. He changed magazines 14 times, emptying each one. At a semi-auto firing rate, it would probably have taken him around 20 to 30 seconds to go through a magazine (given time for swinging the barrel about) and probably five seconds to swap in a fresh one. So the massacre must have lasted around six or seven minutes. The brave vigilante then shows up, takes cover behind a truck and waits for the shooter to finish up in the church and come outside before shooting at the shooter. That is a true hero. From what we can tell he saved no lives and tore up the highway in a high speed chase. We need more GGWAGs like that, yes sir-ee. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/215 "2017-11-09T15:57:53Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The brave vigilante then shows up, takes cover behind a truck and waits for the shooter to finish up in the church and come outside before shooting at the shooter. That is a true hero. From what we can tell he saved no lives and tore up the highway in a high speed chase. We need more GGWAGs like that, yes sir-ee. Except that’s not what happened. The brave private citizen was alerted to the situation by his daughter and arrived along with other people as the gunman left the church. He shot him twice forcing the gunman to drop his rifle. The gunman then took off firing his pistol out of the window. The two people took off after the shooter and called 911 telling them they are in pursuit. So to summarize, the NRA trained respondents beat the police to the scene, shot the killer and pursued him before the police could engage him. This is a perfect example of “when seconds count, the police are minutes away”. The private citizen did what needed to be done and probably saved more lives. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/216 "2017-11-09T16:09:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This is a perfect example of “when seconds count, the police are minutes away”. I would wager that town is filled with “GGWG’s” and they were still minutes away. A couple dozen died. How many theoretical lives were saved? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/217 "2017-11-09T17:15:53Z")
I understand priests and ministers in many states in the USA are allowed to carry guns during services if they wish — _ **over** _ their robes presumably, or maybe resting on the lectern; this could be a deterrent. The Texas Attorney-General a few days ago calle\*\*d \*\*out for more guns in churches; and [**Home Defense Gun**](https://homedefensegun.net/carrying-a-gun-in-church/) grants it’s imprimatur: _I am not one to pass judgment on someone who has the right to carry a firearm and chooses not to. It is a personal choice and it is a choice that requires a lot of thought and soul searching. It will require additional thought and soul searching when carrying your firearm into a house of worship._ ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/218 "2017-11-09T17:53:51Z")
Those of you espousing the “good guy with a gun” credo are the reason for these horrible events in the first place. No one thinks of themselves as a “bad guy.” We are all “good guys” in our own minds. Even the guy in this latest shooting, I’m sure, thought of himself as the good guy. It’s ok, according to you, for the good guys to take up arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing end them. And if perhaps that good guy has an unsteady grasp on reality, and sees bad guys around every bend, then what choice does he have but to shoot them all down. Unless, and until, it becomes _ **not ok** _ for good guys to shoot bad guys, these events will continue to occur. And those of you who continue say that your right to protect yourself with a gun\* is more important than anyone else’s right to not be shot, will continue to have the blood of the victims of these shootings on your hands. mc \*an asumption, it turns out, that is not borne out by [statistics](https://www.yahoo.com/news/guns-rarely-used-self-defense-us-205812892.html) as the vast majority of civilian gun owners never use their weapon in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/219 "2017-11-09T17:58:34Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I would wager that town is filled with “GGWG’s” and they were still minutes away. A couple dozen died. How many theoretical lives were saved? The 2 people who responded to it are not theoretical. He was shooting at them. They shot back. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/220 "2017-11-09T18:07:08Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > I would wager that town is filled with “GGWG’s” and they were still minutes away. A couple dozen died. How many theoretical lives were saved? argue all you want, they beat the police to the scene and wounded the shooter. By chasing him down they stopped any further murders and triggered his suicide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811.md?page=12)