# Another mass shooting in the US (Texas) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811 "2017-11-05T20:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/161 "2017-11-07T20:58:34Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Had the gun control crowd had their way, the BAD GUY would not have had a gun, either, and there would be no need of the post-hoc good guy. And dozens of people wouldn’t be dead. He wouldn’t have? Nobody ever gets their hands on guns where they are illegal? Or nobody who is disallowed ever uses guns to kill people? So that’s why we have no illegal drug use in this country!! Huh. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/162 "2017-11-07T21:01:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Post shortened, emphasis added, eyes rolled. Another mass murderer found a way to commit mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/163 "2017-11-07T21:03:13Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > And again, they passed regulations to make this form of attack harder (along with flying planes into buildings). Thanks for showing that we should pass regulation to make it harder for people to use guns to commit mass murders. And trucks are still being used by mass murderers to commit mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/164 "2017-11-07T21:03:50Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > The reports I’ve read seem to indicate that both shots were severe wounds, and they possibly, you know, resulted in the murderer losing control of his truck in a pretty significant accident. That he shot himself in the head is certainly a bonus all-around. Sure, possibly. Not exactly a slam dunk. > [@Orwell](#): > > You seem pretty sure the shooter had wrapped up his day and was going home to enjoy a nice, cold beer rather than, you know, continuing to shoot other people in other locations. I’m not sure of anything, in fact (check’s post), yep, I said the fact that he had left “suggested” the spree was over. Not my strongest endorsement. You, however… > [@Orwell](#): > > it bears repeating that **a neighbor** with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle **put an end** to the mass murder event. > [@Orwell](#): > > A good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun No hesitation in your own post. All I’m saying is that [possibly] stopping a mass shooting spree 450 rounds in, after everyone in the building had already been hit and the shooter left isn’t exactly a stellar example of your point. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/165 "2017-11-07T21:05:06Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Another mass murderer found a way to commit mass murder. I know, and he used a truck. Can you believe it? That’s why we all refer to it as the Oklahoma City trucking of 1995. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/166 "2017-11-07T21:17:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > No hesitation in your own post. > > All I’m saying is that [possibly] stopping a mass shooting spree 450 rounds in, after everyone in the building had already been hit and the shooter left isn’t exactly a stellar example of your point. I admit it would have been better if someone in the church had shot him sooner, and given that it was in Texas, I’m a little surprised if that didn’t happen. But, apparently, the guy was wearing body armor, which would have given him a fair amount of protection from most handgun shots. I still say that it is not reasonable to assume that the shooter was done killing people when he left the church. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/167 "2017-11-07T21:19:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, lets expand on that. The purpose of the background check is to screen out the obvious. It’s hard for those who aren’t supposed to be able to purchase a gun. It’s not meant to be hard for those who can legitimately purchase one. For people with a CCW license there is a required safety course to obtain the license. Filling out a form and waiting for a background check is not in my definition of “hard” And we weren’t talking about a CCW license, we were talking about purchasing a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/168 "2017-11-07T21:22:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Filling out a form and waiting for a background check is not in my definition of “hard”. And paying a fee for the background check. And all of that has to be done even if you just did it the week before. Trying hard to think of other constitutional rights that require background checks, forms and fees, and coming up empty. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/169 "2017-11-07T21:26:43Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > And paying a fee for the background check. And all of that has to be done even if you just did it the week before. Trying hard to think of other constitutional rights that require background checks, forms and fees, and coming up empty. If you don’t want to do that, just go to a gun show, and then you don’t need a fee or a background check. Seems pretty easy to me. Plus, filling out a form is not “hard” no matter how onerous you think it might be. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/170 "2017-11-07T21:27:23Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I admit it would have been better if someone in the church had shot him sooner, and given that it was in Texas, I’m a little surprised if that didn’t happen. But, apparently, the guy was wearing body armor, which would have given him a fair amount of protection from most handgun shots. Sure, I’ll admit that the fantasy is always better than the reality too. The shooters generally show up better prepared, more guns, more ammo, body armor, and are ready to kill. In every way they have the upper hand. Sometimes a good guy with a gun has improved the outcome, but it’s just not a workable strategy for preventing mass shootings. And in this case the reason we’re not talking about it isn’t because we’re unwilling to admit that a good guy saved the day, but because the facts don’t support that conclusion. > [@Orwell](#): > > I still say that it is not reasonable to assume that the shooter was done killing people when he left the church. You and I are just going to have different definitions of what’s reasonable then. Per reports, there were 15 empty 30 round magazines in the church. How much ammo do you think this guy was carrying? What does 450 rounds weigh? He dropped his AR when he fled, probably because he had nothing left for it. All indications suggest that it was already over. I can’t say for sure he wasn’t going to shoot anyone, hell, there’s a good chance that he was mad his in-laws weren’t there and was going to go hunt them down with his sidearm, but it’s reasonable to think that the bulk of the shooting had already ended by the time the neighbor showed up. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/171 "2017-11-07T21:32:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I know, and he used a truck. Can you believe it? That’s why we all refer to it as the Oklahoma City trucking of 1995. (underline added) Who is this “we” you are referring to? I have noticed that mass murderers do not limit themselves to your weapon of choice. The one thing that all mass murderers do seem to have in common is their willingness to commit mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/172 "2017-11-07T21:34:05Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Trying hard to think of other constitutional rights that require background checks, forms and fees, and coming up empty. The 26th Amendment made it possible for people who were 18 to vote. Yet, I had to register to vote by filling out an onerous form! And in some states, I need an ID to vote! It’s very hard to vote. Much easier to buy a truck. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/173 "2017-11-07T21:39:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you don’t want to do that, just go to a gun show, and then you don’t need a fee or a background check. Seems pretty easy to me. > > Plus, filling out a form is not “hard” no matter how onerous you think it might be. I’ve been to many gun shows and even bought a few guns there. I had to fill out the forms, have background checks and pay the fees every time. You are referring to person-to-person individual sales, which sometimes don’t require background checks etc., depending on the state and type of gun. There is no “gun show loophole” that I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/174 "2017-11-07T21:39:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (underline added) > > Who is this “we” you are referring to? > > I have noticed that mass murderers do not limit themselves to your weapon of choice. The one thing that all mass murderers do seem to have in common is their willingness to commit mass murder. (underline added) What a stunning observation. What other tautologies can you tell us about? The one thing all grounds keepers do seem to have in common is their willingness to keep grounds. The one thing all basketball players have in common is their willingness to play basketball. Now that we’ve got such brilliant observations under our belt, would you care to explain why you brought up a bombing in response to a post about truck/car attacks? Is it clever to point out that the bomb was transported in a truck? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/175 "2017-11-07T21:40:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sure, I’ll admit that the fantasy is always better than the reality too. The shooters generally show up better prepared, more guns, more ammo, body armor, and are ready to kill. In every way they have the upper hand. Sometimes a good guy with a gun has improved the outcome, but it’s just not a workable strategy for preventing mass shootings. And in this case the reason we’re not talking about it isn’t because we’re unwilling to admit that a good guy saved the day, but because the facts don’t support that conclusion. > > You and I are just going to have different definitions of what’s reasonable then. Per reports, there were 15 empty 30 round magazines in the church. How much ammo do you think this guy was carrying? What does 450 rounds weigh? **He dropped his AR when he fled, probably because he had nothing left for it.** All indications suggest that it was already over. I can’t say for sure he wasn’t going to shoot anyone, hell, there’s a good chance that he was mad his in-laws weren’t there and was going to go hunt them down with his sidearm, but it’s reasonable to think that the bulk of the shooting had already ended by the time the neighbor showed up. All the stories I’ve seen is he dropped it in response to being hit twice(three?) by the neighbor. I haven’t seen mentioned if he had more ammo in his truck but he did still have two handguns when he fled. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/176 "2017-11-07T21:47:42Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I can’t say for sure he wasn’t going to shoot anyone, hell, there’s a good chance that he was mad his in-laws weren’t there and was going to go hunt them down with his sidearm, but it’s reasonable to think that the bulk of the shooting had already ended by the time the neighbor showed up. I wouldn’t disagree with your assessment except he was a nutjob. He was mad at the world, thought religious people were stupid and somehow linked it all to his mother inlaw. If I were to make a SWAG, I’d say he was unhappy and despised people who were happy with their god. His MIL said something to drive home that point. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/177 "2017-11-07T21:49:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You and I are just going to have different definitions of what’s reasonable then. Per reports, there were 15 empty 30 round magazines in the church. How much ammo do you think this guy was carrying? What does 450 rounds weigh? He dropped his AR when he fled, probably because he had nothing left for it. All indications suggest that it was already over. I can’t say for sure he wasn’t going to shoot anyone, hell, there’s a good chance that he was mad his in-laws weren’t there and was going to go hunt them down with his sidearm, but it’s reasonable to think that the bulk of the shooting had already ended by the time the neighbor showed up. It appears that his in-laws were part of his motivation. At the very least, it’s not hard to think he would have continued to go after them. But who really knows? I think using the term “reasonable” is out of place regarding this guy, no matter who says it. The guy had been drummed out of the military, had a history of domestic violence, had apparently escaped from a mental health center and had sent threatening text messages to his mother-in-law. The guy was a powder keg ready to blow. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/178 "2017-11-07T22:33:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > At best you would have a **law abiding citizen** without a gun. But unless you have a solution to the heroin problem you don’t have a method for removing guns. On top of that there is no evidence you can produce that the killer couldn’t have killed those people using other methods. > [@CNN](#): > > He spent 12 months in a military prison for assaulting his then-wife and stepson and received a bad-conduct discharge. > He was charged with animal cruelty on suspicion of beating a dog. > \ > Kelley initially faced multiple charges in his 2012 court-martial, according to records CNN reviewed. He was originally charged with assault and battery against his spouse, aggravated assault against his stepson and four charges involving firearms, including two of pointing a loaded firearm at his wife and two of pointing an unloaded firearm. > The firearms charges were dropped before trial as a result of an agreement in which Kelley pleaded guilty to the aggravated assault against the child and the assault against his wife. > As part of his plea, Kelley admitted to hitting his stepson on the head and body “with a force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm.” The injuries fractured the young boy’s skull and caused internal bleeding, Christensen told CNN. > Kelley also admitted to hitting and kicking his wife repeatedly, choking her and pulling her hair. > [@NYTimes](#): > > The gunman who killed 26 people in a rural Texas church on Sunday escaped from a psychiatric hospital while he was in the Air Force, after making death threats against his superiors and trying to smuggle weapons onto the base where he was stationed, a 2012 police report shows. > > The police took the man, Devin P. Kelley, into custody at a bus station in downtown El Paso, where he apparently planned to flee on a bus after escaping from Peak Behavioral Health Services, a hospital a few miles away in Santa Teresa, N.M. He was sent there after being charged in a military court with assaulting his wife and baby stepson, charges he later pleaded guilty to. > > The report filed by the El Paso officers says that the person who reported Mr. Kelley missing from the hospital advised them that he “suffered from mental disorders,” and that he “was attempting to carry out death threats” against “his military chain of command.” The man “was a danger to himself and others as he had already been caught sneaking firearms onto Holloman Air Force Base,” I think we have different definitions of “law abiding” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/179 "2017-11-07T23:01:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No I’m not basically saying that and I already posted some suggestions. > > Yes. And again, I addressed that issue although in a “read between the lines” manner. If you don’t address root causes then the solution is a waste of time and money. > > I’ll give you a simple example, We spend billions on security systems for airports that don’t work. They don’t address human behavior. The Israelis use an interviewing system done in layers that focuses directly on human behavior. Serious curious question to anybody, what are the Israeli gun laws like? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811/180 "2017-11-07T23:21:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I know, and he used a truck. Can you believe it? That’s why we all refer to it as the Oklahoma City trucking of 1995. Do you know how guns get to gun stores where would-be murderers can buy them? By truck! Therefore, every shooting was a trucking first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-in-the-us-texas/800811.md?page=10)