# Another Mass Shooting (San Bernardino) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 2, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242 "2015-12-02T19:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![IaMoDiNaRy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IaMoDiNaRy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IaMoDiNaRy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/241 "2015-12-03T20:24:11Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Just the two shooters. Reports of a third suspect were incorrect. Yesterday afternoon, I distinctly remember a witness being interviewed (audio only) saying she saw “three” people dressed all in black, cargo type pants, pockets, zippers etc. carrying weapons entering the building together. This would have been before 3:30 Pacific time that I heard this. Sounds like she was very close by. So I’m still wondering about the number of shooters… ??? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/242 "2015-12-03T20:26:26Z")
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, so it’s possible that this eyewitness was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/243 "2015-12-03T20:26:49Z")
Hmmm From what I’ve been hearing on the radio the guy seemed to be well liked, his co-workers threw him a baby shower, supposedly he was allowed to leave work to return home to pray multiple times a day, doesn’t seem like someone that was mistreated or would have a real grievance, but I’m sure new information will trickle out over the next few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/244 "2015-12-03T20:28:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, so it’s possible that this eyewitness was wrong. Absolutely. How many witnesses in Dealy Plaza swore there were more than 3 shots or that they were fired from the grassy knoll? When in a panic situation, one can certainly become mistaken about details. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/245 "2015-12-03T20:30:43Z")
None of these people have a _real_ grievance. People with real grievances hire a lawyer or start a protest or something. It’s strictly the imaginary grievances that inspire this sort of attack. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/246 "2015-12-03T20:36:34Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Military assault rifles are less powerful than typical deer rifles. In most Western states they are not legal for deer hunting, as they are too likely to result in a wounded animal escaping. (Eastern white tailed deer are much smaller than the mule deer common in the west). > > The 7.62x54 NATO round used by some designated marksmen and/or snipers is considered an adequate round for deer hunting, (where it is known as .308 Winchester) though it is considerably less powerful than the .30-'06 round used in the WW-II Korea era, and still favored by many big game hunters. The AR-10 rifle is available to civilians, and has military styling, but it is perhaps 5% (my WAG) as popular as the much lower powered AR-15. > > Furthermore, most of the inexpensive ammo available for these rifles is military surplus/production over runs, and is FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) or “ball” ammo, meaning that the bullets are designed NOT to expand on impact…a requirement of the Geneva convention, as expanding bullets were felt to be overly lethal, and produce more ghastly injuries when not fatal, and were not required to meet military objectives. > > In contrast, many state game agencies forbid the use of FMJ ammunition, as it is again, too likely to result in a wounded animal escaping. FMJ bullets may be required for Pachyderms, however. > > In short, “high powered, military style assault weapons” is an oxymoron. It is either a deliberate distortion intended to make these firearms seem more dangerous than they actually are (no firearm is safe) and stir support for their banning. Or it is a repetition in ignorance after exposure to such propaganda. > > If semi-automatic versions of military rifles are not suitable for hunting, it is because they are insufficiently powerful or lethal, not because they are overkill. In basic training, which as we all know is a kinda sketchy place to get facts from, we were told by our drill sergeants that the 5.56 round of the m-16 was so small because it was intended to wound the enemy rather than kill him. This is because a wounded soldier requires his comrades to pull him off the battlefield oftentimes 3-5 guys in total are going to be acting to pull the guy off. We were also told it makes his buddies easy targets… ---
**Author:** ![IaMoDiNaRy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IaMoDiNaRy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IaMoDiNaRy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/247 "2015-12-03T20:36:36Z")
Her description of them was very detailed, said she didn’t see their faces but described what they were wearing very well. Hats obscured their faces, I think she said. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/248 "2015-12-03T20:55:52Z")
There were reports of a third person running away from the scene, and reports that police had detained somebody who there weren’t sure was involved or not. So, there could still be a third person out there who was smart enough not to stick with Bonnie & Clyde here. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/249 "2015-12-03T21:02:41Z")
> [@IaMoDiNaRy](#): > > Her description of them was very detailed, said she didn’t see their faces but described what they were wearing very well. Hats obscured their faces, I think she said. How detailed the description is has nothing to do with the accuracy of the memory: > [@Scientific American](#): > > Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. > **[Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/)** > > Eyewitness testimony is fickle and, all too often, shockingly inaccurate People’s minds can easily fill in detail of something that never occurred - for example, substituting a mall they’ve actually seen to give details of the location for an event that never happened. She’s seen people before, so her brain can easily fill in a third person even if one was never there. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/250 "2015-12-03T21:08:26Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > In basic training, which as we all know is a kinda sketchy place to get facts from, we were told by our drill sergeants that the 5.56 round of the m-16 was so small because it was intended to wound the enemy rather than kill him. This is because a wounded soldier requires his comrades to pull him off the battlefield oftentimes 3-5 guys in total are going to be acting to pull the guy off. We were also told it makes his buddies easy targets… I’m reasonably sure that is a military urban legend. A 5.56 round fired at 3110 ft/sec can kill as easily as a 7.62 round. The main reason to go from 7.62 to 5.56 was the ability of the average infantry soldier to carry more rounds of the lighter ammo. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/251 "2015-12-03T21:11:22Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m reasonably sure that is a military urban legend. A 5.56 round fired at 3110 ft/sec can kill as easily as a 7.62 round. The main reason to go from 7.62 to 5.56 was the ability of the average infantry soldier to carry more rounds of the lighter ammo. I also read that the recoil from the M-14 (7.62) was uncontrollable on full-auto. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/252 "2015-12-03T21:42:26Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m sorry for your loss. One of my friends who lives only about a mile from the location of the incident just checked in on FB (he was at work) so I know he’s OK, but I know someone else who lives in SB, and while I have no reason to think she would have been in or around that building, I haven’t heard from her to know for sure. Might I ask where you found the victim information? I am having trouble finding confirmed information on the victims, just a lot of stories reporting the names of the dead shooters. Mutual friends, and we got final confirmation from his boyfriend a couple hours ago. This article in the Times is about him: For victim’s boyfriend, 22 hours of conflicting reports, then heartbreak > **[For victim's boyfriend, 22 hours of conflicting reports, then heartbreak](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-daniel-kaufman-boyfriend-20151203-story.html)** > > Ryan Reyes dropped off his boyfriend, Daniel Kaufman, at work Wednesday at 7 a.m. and traded texts and photos with him throughout the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/253 "2015-12-03T22:19:54Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > It was just confirmed my friend is among the dead. > > Fuck. I’m very sorry for your loss. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/254 "2015-12-03T22:22:52Z")
Maggie, I can empathize with your loss, as three of my co-workers were killed a couple of years ago in a workplace shooting in Irwindale. Two of them had been good friends of mine for decades. The hurt never really goes away. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/255 "2015-12-03T22:30:27Z")
i’m sorry,\*\* Maggie\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/256 "2015-12-04T00:36:13Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Mutual friends, and we got final confirmation from his boyfriend a couple hours ago. Awful. I’m very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/257 "2015-12-04T00:44:47Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m sorry for your loss. One of my friends who lives only about a mile from the location of the incident just checked in on FB (he was at work) so I know he’s OK, but I know someone else who lives in SB, and while I have no reason to think she would have been in or around that building, I haven’t heard from her to know for sure. Might I ask where you found the victim information? I am having trouble finding confirmed information on the victims, just a lot of stories reporting the names of the dead shooters. You might have already seen this, but [here](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-victims-htmlstory.html) is a list. It’s heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/258 "2015-12-04T00:54:35Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > It was just confirmed my friend is among the dead. > > Fuck. I am very sorry. > [@pool](#): > > It seems pretty obvious it was a terrorist attack, what’s with the confusion? Some people simply don’t like the T word unless the perp is associated with a recognized organization. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/259 "2015-12-04T00:55:19Z")
Very sorry for your loss, **Maggie**. A question about the police response…In one of the stories I read, I saw this: > [@](#): > > Farook had been with his colleagues at the party earlier in the morning, police said. Authorities could not say conclusively whether there had been a dispute that led to Farook leaving the party. But police said a survivor of the shooting told them that Farook slipped away prior to the massacre. When police checked the name, they saw that Farook had rented an SUV that matched the description of the suspected getaway car. ( [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/12/03/fbi-takes-over-san-bernardino-investigation-as-authorities-seek-motive-for-attack-that-killed-14-people/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/12/03/fbi-takes-over-san-bernardino-investigation-as-authorities-seek-motive-for-attack-that-killed-14-people/)) So, the police hear that this guy left unexpectedly, and they “check his name”, and learn that he had rented a black SUV? How’d they do that?? Do car rental places report rentals in to some central police database in California? How does a car rental follow your name somewhere the police can see it quickly when they “check your name”? I could see the police getting credit card records, seeing a charge at Enterprise, calling Enterprise and asking for their records, _then_ seeing that he’d rented a black SUV. But that would take way more than the couple hours they completed their check in. What’s the deal? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242/260 "2015-12-04T01:15:54Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > What’s the deal? I would believe that Enterprise lets the police access their computer records. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-mass-shooting-san-bernardino/739242.md?page=14)