# Another missing Asian airliner **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 28, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337 "2014-12-28T04:14:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/121 "2015-01-24T09:39:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the 17,000 fpm climb is from the black box that’s wild. that would be one massive updraft or an elevator stuck in full up trim. It’s not as far as I know, and isn’t it 6000 fpm? > [@LSLGuy](#): > > The raw data, without interpretation, is useless to the non-expert. And instant-but-clueless experts are a dime a dozen for the news media. Which simply amplifies the ignorance. > > The public clamor for a play-by-play narration for an investigation that properly takes months is really a stupid situation. Everybody should just wait for the conclusive conclusions. And everybody should want to wait for the conclusive conclusions. But that sure is not the way modern human adult children are trained. So I’m not holding my breath. To add to this: If anything comes out of the on going investigation that is of time critical importance to safety such as faulty parts, poor engineering practices, or crew procedures, that information will be passed on to those who actually need it straight away. Often when the final report is released it contains a number of safety recommendations which have already been implemented. The lack of an immediate (or close to) report has no affect on safety it only has the affect of frustrating curious onlookers who ultimately don’t have any particular need to access the report. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/122 "2015-01-24T10:48:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > It’s not as far as I know, and isn’t it 6000 fpm? Ok, I see Reuters being cited for the 17000 fpm though I’m having difficulty finding the actual Reuters article. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/123 "2015-01-24T14:08:15Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Ok, I see Reuters being cited for the 17000 fpm though I’m having difficulty finding the actual Reuters article. [Wall Street Journal](http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-stall-warnings-were-going-off-crash-investigator-says-1421825697?tesla=y)says “more than 8,000 fpm” citing the Indonesian Transport Ministry’s statement about ADS-B data. But from the position plot that’s about what you’d get for going from start of climb to peak height in the time plotted so I suppose you could far exceed it at points in between. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/124 "2015-01-29T07:38:02Z")
Here is a Wall Street Journal article which gives the impression it may be something like the AirFrance 447 flight–where the pilots didn’t recognize/know how to recover from a stall: > **[AirAsia Co-Pilot Was at Helm Before Crash](https://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-co-pilot-was-likely-at-helm-before-crash-1422493886)** > > The lead investigator looking into the fatal crash of AirAsia Flight 8501 said the co-pilot was at the controls before the jet went into a dangerously fast climb. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/125 "2015-01-29T08:26:21Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > [Wall Street Journal](http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-stall-warnings-were-going-off-crash-investigator-says-1421825697?tesla=y)says “more than 8,000 fpm” citing the Indonesian Transport Ministry’s statement about ADS-B data. But from the position plot that’s about what you’d get for going from start of climb to peak height in the time plotted so I suppose you could far exceed it at points in between. It will be interesting to see what the FDR data says, working things out based on ADS-B plots is not ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/126 "2015-01-31T16:17:53Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Here is a Wall Street Journal article which gives the impression it may be something like the AirFrance 447 flight–where the pilots didn’t recognize/know how to recover from a stall: > [http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-co-pilot-was-likely-at-helm-before-crash-1422493886](http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-co-pilot-was-likely-at-helm-before-crash-1422493886) it appears the Pilot deliberately pulled the breaker on the Flight Augmentation Computer while the FO flew the plane. It’s an unusual thing to do. Did the plane go into an elevator-up configuration and the pilot was trying to disengage the computer? It doesn’t make sense but at this point the plane was flown into a stall by either the FO or the computer system. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/127 "2015-01-31T16:56:22Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Here is a Wall Street Journal article which gives the impression it may be something like the AirFrance 447 flight–where the pilots didn’t recognize/know how to recover from a stall: > [http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-co-pilot-was-likely-at-helm-before-crash-1422493886](http://www.wsj.com/articles/airasia-co-pilot-was-likely-at-helm-before-crash-1422493886) Y’know, when that first article came out I did a GoogleNews search and was a bit annoyed that the reiterated headline was that it was the FO who “had the plane”, rather than that there was some problem with the stall systems and the next step is to figure what/why. Now we have the info that he had the plane while the CO was apparently trying to hard-reboot. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/128 "2015-02-01T01:01:43Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Y’know, when that first article came out I did a GoogleNews search and was a bit annoyed that the reiterated headline was that it was the FO who “had the plane”, rather than that there was some problem with the stall systems and the next step is to figure what/why. Now we have the info that he had the plane while the CO was apparently trying to hard-reboot. I haven’t heard anything that said the stall indicator system(s) didn’t work. But for the Captain to pull the breaker on the FAC it means resetting it didn’t do what it was suppose to do. If I understand the Airbus system it’s set up so that the first input is the one recognized and the alternate is ignored. So if the FO’s stick was pulled all the way back (full up elevator) then the captain’s stick would be ignored. if the FO’s was giving a false signal and the Captain’s input was ignored then it would make sense to disable “something” but I’m not sure what. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/129 "2015-02-01T01:55:08Z")
Is a 17,000 fpm ascent rate even possible for an A320? That’s nearly 300 feet per second. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/130 "2015-02-01T05:39:35Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is a 17,000 fpm ascent rate even possible for an A320? That’s nearly 300 feet per second. First, I’d wait for the FDR data before taking any climb rates as gospel. Second, yes you can obtain very high rates of climb, briefly. If you are toodling along at 450 knots and then pull the stick back and pitch the nose up abruptly, the initial rate of climb will be very high but it will quickly drop off and unless you lower the nose to a more sensible attitude you will slow down and stall. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/131 "2015-02-01T06:16:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > First, I’d wait for the FDR data before taking any climb rates as gospel. > > Second, yes you can obtain very high rates of climb, briefly. If you are toodling along at 450 knots and then pull the stick back and pitch the nose up abruptly, the initial rate of climb will be very high but it will quickly drop off and unless you lower the nose to a more sensible attitude you will slow down and stall. More to the point it’s not something a passenger pilot would willingly do. It’s a bit unnerving when the drink cart and the flight attendants fly past you overhead. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/132 "2015-02-01T09:03:35Z")
In the discussion of SSTs over in GQ, a thought occurred: If the Air France disaster had occurred at 35,000’, could the plane have pitched down enough to hit Mach 1 on its way down? It was a 777 if I remember right - what would happen to a 777 going trans-sonic? Lots of pieces too small too be found on an ocean bottom? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/133 "2015-02-01T11:08:51Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > In the discussion of SSTs over in GQ, a thought occurred: > > If the Air France disaster had occurred at 35,000’, could the plane have pitched down enough to hit Mach 1 on its way down? > > It was a 777 if I remember right - what would happen to a 777 going trans-sonic? > > Lots of pieces too small too be found on an ocean bottom? Interesting question. But just to correct one detail: I believe that plane was in a pitch-up stall most of the way down, until the just-awakened head pilot took charge and (IIRC) finally understood what should have been done minutes before, and pitched down just for the last thousand feet or so. ---
**Author:** ![txswimdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@txswimdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txswimdad)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/134 "2015-02-02T01:39:19Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > If the Air France disaster had occurred at 35,000’, could the plane have pitched down enough to hit Mach 1 on its way down? > > It was a 777 if I remember right - what would happen to a 777 going trans-sonic? Air France 447 was an Airbus A330 ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/135 "2015-02-02T02:44:06Z")
and I was talking about MH370 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/136 "2015-02-02T02:58:58Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > In the discussion of SSTs over in GQ, a thought occurred: > > If the Air France disaster had occurred at 35,000’, could the plane have pitched down enough to hit Mach 1 on its way down? > > It was a 777 if I remember right - what would happen to a 777 going trans-sonic? > > Lots of pieces too small too be found on an ocean bottom? The critical component in a plan going supersonic is the elevator. The pressure wave moves back and locks it in position. The fix for that is an adjustable horizontal tail plane Which a [777](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/View_of_EVA_Air_Boeing_777-300ER_tail.jpg) has. So my wag is that it’s still controllable with trim. I’ve never really paid much attention but I think most airliners have that type of setup. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/137 "2015-02-02T11:57:01Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > In the discussion of SSTs over in GQ, a thought occurred: > > If the Air France disaster had occurred at 35,000’, could the plane have pitched down enough to hit Mach 1 on its way down? > > It was a 777 if I remember right - what would happen to a 777 going trans-sonic? > > Lots of pieces too small too be found on an ocean bottom? Sure it could. Jets accelerate very quickly when you point the nose down. PSA1771 was a BAe146 that is thought to have hit the ground in a 70º dive, and faster than the speed of sound at 770mph. It reached that from a cruise altitude of 22,000’ and the 146 is a very slow jet compared to your typical Boeing or Airbus. It has a relatively straight wing and no high speed devices such as mach trimmers or flying tailplanes. > **[Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771)** > > Pacific Southwest Airlines Flight 1771 was a scheduled flight along the West Coast of the United States, from Los Angeles, California, to San Francisco. On December 7, 1987, the British Aerospace 146-200A, registration N350PS, crashed in San Luis Obispo County near Cayucos, after being hijacked by a passenger. > All 43 passengers and crew aboard the plane died, five of whom, including the two pilots, were presumably shot dead before the plane crashed. The perpetrator, David Burke, was a disgrun... It disintegrated, though enough bits were found to figure out what had happened. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/138 "2015-02-02T13:34:15Z")
Getting sonic in a big jet is easy. Surviving doing so is not. Tailplane trim as pointed out by **Magiver** \*might \*be enough to salvage a gentle descent caught just barely past Mach 1. The trim drive mechanism is not powerful enough to deal with the air loads much past that. Getting the nose buried is often a one-way move; you’re usually past the point of no return even before the speed gets ludicrous. What tends to happen then is big parts shed in the low to mid 20 thousand foot range. At which point much of what remains is less aerodynamic and falls more slowly. So you still have plenty of big chunks, but they’re spread out over a multi-square mile area when they re-arrive on Earth. Pan Am 103, TWA 800, and the more recent MH17 shoot-down over Ukraine are good examples of what the wreckage looks like when the airplane come unglued at altitude. A handful of big 20-40’ chunks, thousands of 3-5’ chunks, and lots of confetti. Most of the confetti won’t be recovered even for a land impact. At sea even less will be recovered. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/139 "2015-02-02T16:39:41Z")
At supersonic speed, a big airliner might get “flutter” resonance-vibration and have parts fall off, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337/140 "2015-02-02T18:02:34Z")
Actually a few airliners have gone past Mach 1 and landed in one piece… OK, minus a few pieces in some cases. I searched because I thought it was a Convair 990 that had gone supersonic on purpose during test flights, but it turned out it was a [DC-8](http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-dc8-sst-flight.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-missing-asian-airliner/708337.md?page=8)