# Another moment of your time, Libertarian (plus: musings on Libertopia)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 19, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888 "2002-12-19T20:39:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/1 "2002-12-19T20:39:07Z")
**Lib** , over in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151325) you wrote regarding **minty** ’s inquiry:\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> It is unfortunate for you that the [most recent time](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148689) that I encountered someone so thoroughly oblivious to the philosophical ethics of politics, it happened to be a lawyer.\*\*
You’re clearly referring to me. Which requires me to ask: WTF?
In the thread you reference, I was asking how a purely Libertarian society would react to a given fact pattern. IMO, that’s a good way to examine the nuances of a given philosophy.
And while my naked man question (admittedly, partially chosen so I could work in some bad puns) may have been lighthearted, I hardly think it represents obliviousness. It raises good questions: are there literally _no_ public spaces in Libertopia? How does that work, exactly? Do you, absent a contractual relationship and outside of refraining from physical harm to property, owe any duties to your neighbors? What if I play my stereo cranked to 11 at 2:00 a.m.? Am I free from reprisal so long as I’m within my own house? Or can my fellow contractees stop me (assuming we don’t have any preexisting agreement on this matter)? What if it’s 2:00 p.m.? What if I am a contracting party to a different (and more music-friendly) government than my neighbors?
At any rate, I hardly think my posts indicate “obliviousness.” Disagreement over fundamental axioms does not equal obliviousness.
I also frankly don’t see the connection between your “frustration” over our discussion and your comment in **minty** ’s thread that “If you’re not a lawyer, judge, or legislator, your opinion about the Constitution is worthless. It’s a private club.” I don’t think I (or other posters sharing my view) expressed anything of the sort. Indeed, I explicity stated that recognition of rights at law was but _one way_ of generating rights.
Anyway, there were some good questions in that thread that I’d still like to hear answers to. Such as this:\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> KEY QUESTION: How is assent to government determined in Libertopia? Is it actual [express] assent, or is it implied by conduct? If it is implied, what conduct is sufficient to give rise to the implication?\*\*
Or this refinement of one of my points by **Stricker** :\*\*
> [@](#):
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> I damaged the property of Fred, who has contracted with Libertopia New York. I flee to the property of Sally. Libertopia New York, according to Libertarian, is now obligated to damage the property of Sally to get to me. But Sally, being fond of libertarian ideals herself, has contracted with Libertopia Los Angeles to protect her property.
>
> So now Libertopia Los Angeles is obligated to go back to Libertopia New York and claim damages, by whatever means necessary. But Libertopia New York says, no way! They were simply doing what they were contracted to do. Their responsibility was Fred’s property, not Sally’s property. But Libertopia L.A. says, well, our responsibility is Sally’s property, and now we’re going to what we’re contracted to do.
>
> And so the two Libertopias go to war, because it’s okay in Libertopia to right a previous wrong with another wrong.
>
> [N.B.: In the example, Stricker is a not a contracting party to either state, and he breaks into Sally’s home while she is on vacation – he does not have her consent]\*\*
And I’m also curious as to whether a government can turn away a party who wishes to contract with it if, say, they cannot pay what the government is charging. In Libertopia, can one wealthy neighbor hire a top-of-the-line government, providing the very best in police and fire protection, while his poorer next-door neighbor has to buy bargain-basement government services?
In the other thread, we had briefly discussed Jews in Nazi Germany. You suggested that the Jews might become contracting parties to Libertopia, and if they did so Libertopia would come to their aid. But what if they can’t afford it? Will Libertopia take them on a _pro bono_ basis? Who decides this? Wouldn’t that be a massive subsidy?
**Lib** , I respect your views. I don’t think you are a “wild man who lives in the wilderness on locusts and honey” with “eyes bulging, arms flailing, blow[ing out] snot and spout[ing] doomsday rhetoric.” And while I may find Libertopia “impractical” I hardly think that is “condescending” – one needn’t accept the workability of a pure libertarian state to recognize the contributions libertarian thought makes to political discourse. Even if such a pure state is unworkable, it can give us a framework to examine problems and generate solutions in real life.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/2 "2002-12-19T21:19:29Z")
I am always delighted to discuss my views and hear the views of others when those others are genuinely interested and the discussion occurs in a context of mutual respect. But you and I have a ways to go before that can occur. I intend to put your sincerity to the test, and you may take this as an opportunity to mend our relationship or you may trash it as you please.
First off, don’t be coy with me.
You say you respect my views, but that is hard to believe. In the cited thread, you said in your very first post:
> [@](#):
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> I can bleat all day about how I have the right to free speech, how it’s God-given and a natural right and is sacrosanct in some metaphysical way, but without a mechanism to insure I can utilize free speech without penalty all that bleating is meaningless.
You can understand how “bleating” might be associated with an animal more than a man, and how it could be interpreted that my views about natural rights are not respectable.
And then immediately this:
> [@](#):
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> I can rant on about how I have a God-given, sacrosanct, natural right to run around buck naked in the town square all I want.
You can see how I might take the image of me “ranting” to mean that I am wild and rhetorically flailing about.
And soon thereafter, this:
> [@](#):
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> So in Libertopia can I bare all three legs on the courthouse steps?
You can understand that it appears to me that you are not seriously discussing, but are playing to the crowd, and have selected Liber **topia** as an intentionally pejorative term.
And then this:
> [@](#):
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> The sad thing to me is that you’re not answering the question. Even in Libertopia, there must be public spaces – are public nudity statutes an initiation of force against me in those spaces?
Sad indeed. Because of your presumption about so-called public spaces, you painted me as evasive. And things went downhill fast from there.
So, yes, I felt very much a general condescension, disrespect, and disdain for me and my philosophy.
I’m not a fool, Dewey. If your intention is to rationalize away all those remarks by recontextualizing them, please spare both you and me the time and bother because this conversation will stop dead in its tracks.
But if you’re prepared to take responsibility for getting us off on the wrong foot and offer a sincere and unqualified apology, then I am willing to put the matter behind me, forgive you unconditionally, and renew what you might find to be an interesting discussion about Liber **teria**. I have many years of research and analysis in this.
Your call.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/3 "2002-12-19T21:32:26Z")
Ok, I’m going to ask a dumb question here, but I’m sincerly curious. What’s wrong with the word “Libertopia” to as the name for our hypothetical libertarian country? Why is it worse than “Liberteria”? I mean, you’ve got Thomas More’s book about his hypothetical country, “Utopia” (and the whole genre of books about fictional, better countries, is called “Utopian literature”), you’ve got that book about the island where dinosaurs live with people, “Dinotopia”, and so on. So, why not Libertopia?
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/4 "2002-12-19T21:37:54Z")
Since you ask sincerely, I’ll answer that way. A “utopia” originally was intended to imply “An ideally perfect place, especially in its social, political, and moral aspects”. That’s definition number one in [American Heritage](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=utopia).
Unfortunately, it has come more and more to mean “An impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform”. That’s definition number two.
And it’s usually the second definition that is intended by people who are using it in a context wherein they believe their opponent to be bleating and ranting.
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/5 "2002-12-19T21:41:21Z")
Lib, you have a point about there being potential for civil debate, but you are taking offense a bit too easily here. That bleating comment may have been intended to evoke certain feelings, but it wasn’t specifically directed at you, nor the OP. It was just a comment. Same goes for the original bit of running around naked absurdium.
Surely you must know that you are not the fulcrum of every discussion you enter.
And I _like_ Libertopia. I know there is irony intended, but it is _not_ offensive. It is merely a subtle way of stating a point.
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/6 "2002-12-19T21:44:38Z")
“Libertaria” reminds me of Liberty City from Grand Theft Auto.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/7 "2002-12-19T21:50:24Z")
What point?
I take offense at the notion that I am some intellectual cripple who does not know that the philosophy he advocates is impractical. Practice. Practical. What you practice determines what is practical.
And I might be a bit sensitive. But that’s me. I’m not selling anything. Nor do I think I am the center of every circle jerk. If I’m worth yielding a bit of leeway, then fine. If not, then fine.
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### Author:  [@Realhoops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Realhoops)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/8 "2002-12-19T21:52:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I can bleat all day about how I have the right to free speech, how it’s God-given and a natural right and is sacrosanct in some metaphysical way, but without a mechanism to insure I can utilize free speech without penalty all that bleating is meaningless.
I know this is probably not in the spirit of the Pit, but I am genuinely curious what your stance on this issue, the “bleating” characterization aside, is. As I’ve indicated in a couple of other threads in the past few weeks, I haven’t been around here much the past couple years until recently, so I apologize if you’ve outlined your position on this somewhere else.
I frankly will admit that I don’t really know that much about the Libertarian philosophy, but I’ve seen several of your posts now on various “legal” type threads, and I’ve been wondering the same general thing that the above quote asks. Without a mechanism, such as the law and courts, etc., to make sure that our rights can be enjoyed without penalty, how do we, from your philosophical standpoint, give meaning to those rights?
_ **Standard, non-Pit type, legalese disclaimer: I honestly intend nothing anywhere in this post to be offensive to anyone, but rather seek an honest answer to an honest question.** _
… if you have set this forth somewhere else, just pointing me in the right direction would be great. Then this thread could return to the fiery nature of the Pit, I suppose.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/9 "2002-12-19T21:59:26Z")
Realhoops wrote:
> [@](#):
>
> Without a mechanism, such as the law and courts, etc., to make sure that our rights can be enjoyed without penalty, how do we, from your philosophical standpoint, give meaning to those rights?
It should never have been assumed that there is no mechanism. The government of Libertaria has an enforcement aspect and an arbitration aspect, but there is no legislation. There is a single law (or statue), stating that every citizen shall be guaranteed freedom from coercion.
For your convenience, here is a [brief introduction](http://members.aol.com/MrSage365/Liberty.html) to the libertarian philosophy.
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/10 "2002-12-19T22:04:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Libertarian \*
> What point?
The very point you just took the trouble to look up. Libertopia conveys the idea that the concept is well intentioned but impractical. It’s an opinion, however, not a statement of fact, and certainly not an insult. If you feel it would be improper to use the term yourself in any reply, simply don’t use it.
> [@](#):
>
> And I might be a bit sensitive. But that’s me. I’m not selling anything. Nor do I think I am the center of every circle jerk. If I’m worth yielding a bit of leeway, then fine. If not, then fine.
A little leeway? Sure, I don’t see why not, so long as you allow for the same. However, I hope none of us would be so bold as to ask for special handling.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/11 "2002-12-19T22:07:30Z")
I don’t think that courtesy and respect ought to be withheld as “special”. And dammit, libertarianism IS practical — UNLESS you are practicing tyranny.
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### Author:  [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/12 "2002-12-19T22:32:28Z")
Yikes! This attitude of ‘I won’t answer the question until you apologize’ seems, well… very childish.
It’s a legitimate question.
So, I’ll ask again, plus another quesiton later:
> [@](#):
>
> ## Or this refinement of one of my points by Stricker: quote:
>
> I damaged the property of Fred, who has contracted with Libertopia New York. I flee to the property of Sally. Libertopia New York, according to Libertarian, is now obligated to damage the property of Sally to get to me. But Sally, being fond of libertarian ideals herself, has contracted with Libertopia Los Angeles to protect her property.
>
> So now Libertopia Los Angeles is obligated to go back to Libertopia New York and claim damages, by whatever means necessary. But Libertopia New York says, no way! They were simply doing what they were contracted to do. Their responsibility was Fred’s property, not Sally’s property. But Libertopia L.A. says, well, our responsibility is Sally’s property, and now we’re going to what we’re contracted to do.
>
> And so the two Libertopias go to war, because it’s okay in Libertopia to right a previous wrong with another wrong.
>
> ## [N.B.: In the example, Stricker is a not a contracting party to either state, and he breaks into Sally’s home while she is on vacation – he does not have her consent]
And my own very basic quesiton:
How does ownership of roads get parceled out?
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/13 "2002-12-19T22:34:48Z")
1. “Bleating” – read the thread. That was a response to the OP, not to you. Furthermore, you’re reading a wee bit much into that word. I was using language to make a point: that words claiming that rights are innate are just that, words, without real-life substance. Using “bleat” helps emphasize this point more than if I had simply used “said.”
2. “Rant” – In this case, I was trying to evoke an image of someone slightly off-kilter. But not you. Read the rest of the sentence – I was talking about someone claiming that he had an innate right to trot about starkers in public. That is a silly view, IMHO, but it has exactly as much empirical support as an “innate” right as those rights commonly called innate.
3. “Three legs” – well, I _did_ admit I wanted to use bad puns…
4. “Libertopia” – is not an offensive characterization, as **CA** points out, and is an accurate shorthand for what we’re describing: an imaginary place where a given ideology holds sway in its purest form. It is the vision Thomas More would have had were he a libertarian.
5. “public spaces” – re-read the thread. I was presuming that courthouses would still be run by the Libertarian government – in the same post where you castigate me for suggesting you were evasive, I asked you about this in good faith. And frankly, I still don’t see how this private justice system you envision would be workable. “Evasion” may have been a poor choice of words, but I still think it’s an issue you ought to address more fully.
You can consider the foregoing a “recontextualization” if you wish. I assure you that is not the case. And I’d like to believe that we can have a productive discussion without walking on eggshells. Certainly I’ve seen worse than the comments you single out in GD, much less the Pit, within a productive discussion.
At any rate, there are good questions here, both from myself and other posters, and I think it would be worthwhile if you would address them.
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/14 "2002-12-19T22:35:10Z")
Lib,
I think the practicality of Libertarianism is one of the topics up for debate, no? What happened to courtesy and respect here? Certainly poisoning the well and accusing any dissenter of practicing tyranny is not evidence of such.
And no, of course I’m not suggesting respect be withheld as a special privilege, what I’m not willing to do is say, “Oh, _ **insert poster name** _ just flew off the handle again, but that’s OK. That’s just the way they are.” I don’t think you are any more willing to make such allowances than I am, are you?
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/15 "2002-12-19T22:40:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Libertarian \*
> **I don’t think that courtesy and respect ought to be withheld as “special”. And dammit, libertarianism IS practical**
Then why two years of evasions and cross-climbing every time a substantive (and blatantly obvious) objection comes up?
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/16 "2002-12-19T22:41:56Z")
Dewey
You believe that I have asked you to walk on eggshells?
I’m afraid you and I have not made progress. As I have demonstrated in this thread (and indeed in my three year history here) I will discuss these matters with anyone who is genuinely interested.
If you and Waverly would like to continue to bash me in my absence, carry on.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/17 "2002-12-19T22:54:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Libertarian \*
> **You believe that I have asked you to walk on eggshells?**
Well, yeah, actually. If you’re gonna get upset at the use of words like “bleat” or “rant,” you’re asking me to engage in an extraordinary degree of care to avoid offending your sensibilities – sensibilities which I think are quite a bit more sensitive than the typical SDMB poster. It isn’t like I’m Collounsbury over here.
Frankly, I don’t terribly much like being called a supporter of tyranny when discussing libertarianism, but I don’t get upset about it. To quote Chris Rock, sometimes you’ve just gotta let shit slide. I’d ask that you do the same.\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> I’m afraid you and I have not made progress. As I have demonstrated in this thread (and indeed in my three year history here) I will discuss these matters with anyone who is genuinely interested.\*\*
Do you think the points I raised to be insubstantial? Why?
I raised reasonable questions in good faith. And I am genuinely interested in your answers. Please note “genuine interest” != I will swallow whatever you say without question. I can disagree with your philosophy while still taking an active interest in the arguments behind it.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/18 "2002-12-19T22:57:11Z")
**Waverly:** _Libertopia conveys the idea that the concept is well intentioned but impractical. It’s an opinion, however, not a statement of fact, and certainly not an insult._
Certainly, people who use terms like “authoritarian” or worse, “tyranny” as allegedly neutral descriptors of non-libertarian ideas have no business getting touchy over “Libertopia” as an “intentionally pejorative term.” If **Lib** is so concerned about “courtesy and respect”, he should use more courteous and respectful terms for non-libertarian views.
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### Author:  [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/19 "2002-12-19T22:58:53Z")
It looks like Lib just flew off the handle, but that is OK, that is just the way he is.
Seriously, if there is a consensus that I treated Lib unfairly in this thread and deserved an accusation of “bashing” him, I’d be happy to email him a swift apology. I could be wrong, but I’m sitting here in amazement thinking I was nothing but civil.
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### Author:  [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)
#### Post date: [December 19, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888/20 "2002-12-19T23:02:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Libertarian \*
> I will discuss these matters with anyone who is genuinely interested. \*\*
_raises hand_
I’m genuinely interested.
I asked 2 questions.
Please answer them.
I’ve never met or talked to someone with beliefs such as your, so I’m very interested in how to get around what I see as practical problems with the implementation of libertarianism.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-moment-of-your-time-libertarian-plus-musings-on-libertopia/143888.md?page=2)