# Another movies technicality thread: Amazing things they got RIGHT. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959 "2004-08-28T15:58:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/61 "2004-09-10T19:39:49Z")
_Silent Running_ starring Bruce Dern is the only science fiction movie that I can recall where exterior shots of the space craft were totally silent. No _zoom_ sounds when the engines ignite. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/62 "2004-09-10T19:57:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > There was a throwaway line that particularly caught my ear: John Turturro was warning Matt Damon that his friend was a card cheat, and he said, “I was suspicious when I saw the mechanic’s grip, but I knew he was dealing seconds when I heard the snap”. Well, dealing ‘seconds’ means that rather than dealing the top card off the deck, you pull it back slightly with your thumb, exposing the second card. You pull that out and deal it, keeping the (known) top card for yourself or your cheating partner. However, because you are pulling a card out from between two other cards that are under pressure from your thumb, when the card comes out there will be a little ‘snick’ sound. An inconsequential and very obscure detail of an even more obscure art, and they got it into the script. I haven’t seen the movie, so I can’t comment on it. However, I respectfully disagree that the quotes you cite are evidence of notable insight into either card cheating or second dealing. To be suspicious of a ‘mechanic’s grip’ makes no sense on any level. First of all, there’s nothing suspicious about that grip. ‘Mechanic’s grip’ and ‘dealer grip’ are essentially the same thing, and it’s perfectly normal for anyone who is dealing cards to use that grip. It doesn’t suggest any cheating is going on. It just suggests they are accustomed to handling cards and dealing them in the most customary, comfortable and practical way. Secondly, if a card cheat were operating, he wouldn’t give himself away by adopting any kind of special or noticeable grip. And so to second dealing. There are two common second dealing techniques - the ‘push off’ and the ‘strike’. I’m not going to describe these techniques because that’s ‘magic secret’ stuff and I don’t do that. The point is that neither technique makes any kind of special sound, not even at a subtle level. Although I do a lot of card sleight of hand, I’m not an expert at second dealing. However, I have had personal demonstrations and tuition from the guy whom I regard as the best second dealer in the world. His name is Simon Lovell, he’s a pro magician based in NY, and he gets paid good money to teach casino chains how to spot customers who are cheating at the card table. His second deals are imperceptible and make no special kind of sound - it just sounds like a card being dealt off the deck, which isn’t much of a sound at all. Other top flight second dealers have also demonstrated their techniques for me, and I assure you there is no give away sound or noise. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/63 "2004-09-10T19:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Frank Gifford also rerecorded the exact words he spoke as commentator during the game, except for the now-famous line “Do you believe in miracles? Yes!” after the win. They used the actual recording, because he couldn’t repeat it without sounding fake to himself. FYI, I’m pretty sure that was Al Michaels. **PoorYorick** , have you seen _2001: A Space Odyssey_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/64 "2004-09-10T19:59:48Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > _Silent Running_ starring Bruce Dern is the only science fiction movie that I can recall where exterior shots of the space craft were totally silent. No _zoom_ sounds when the engines ignite. You need to watch **2001: A Space Odyssey**. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/65 "2004-09-10T22:13:45Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#): > > You need to watch **2001: A Space Odyssey**. Yeah, yeah, both you and **Dooku** pointed that out. I guess I had a mind freeze. Thanks for pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![Duderdude2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@Duderdude2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duderdude2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/66 "2004-09-10T22:16:23Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > Yeah, yeah, both you and **Dooku** pointed that out. I guess I had a mind freeze. Thanks for pointing it out. You need to go watch 2001 😉 Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/67 "2004-09-11T00:27:47Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The movie **Rounders** was a dead-on depiction of the poker life. I can’t comment on that, but **Rounders** did have one scene in which people are supposedly playing **Hearts** (in prison), and it in no way even remotely resembled an actual game of hearts. Which makes me suspicious of all the poker. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/68 "2004-09-11T04:52:18Z")
pepperlandgirl, those books that have been dumped for cheap prices by students are nearly always low-level undergraduate texts. High-level math textbooks are always expensive, even when used. They’re usually kept by the students. The ones that Will Hunting would have had to consult are not textbooks really but the sort of books (and journals) that are only found in university libraries (and maybe on professors’ shelves). And in any case, it’s just not possible to read as much by the age of 20 as Will Hunting is supposed to have read. Speed reading doesn’t really work anyway. It certainly doesn’t work for high-level math, where you’re doing good to read 20 pages in an hour. I’m 52, a fast reader, with two master’s degrees, who spends all his spare time reading, and I haven’t read as much as Will Hunting is supposed to have read. I’m not saying that a kid from a working-class family can’t be brilliant. They just can’t be a prodigy. Look, I grew up in a struggling working-class family. I have _never_ met a mathematician who grew up in a poorer family than mine, and I’ve met hundreds of mathematicians in my life. I’ve met a number of prodigies, and every single one of them had a mentor, usually a parent, who was teaching them from an early age. A kid from a working-class family could be brilliant enough to get a Ph.D. and go on to be a great mathematician, but he couldn’t be a prodigy. He could grow up in a family who allowed him to do well in school, get into a good college where he did well, get into a good grad school where he did well, and go on to do great mathematics. He couldn’t do it any faster than that. It always takes a mentor to do it faster. It certainly would never work if he was brought up in a series of foster families where he was beaten. Kids who are beaten do not rise above it and become prodigies. Most often, they grow up to beat up other people. Will Hunting is depicted as being much more of a prodigy than Ramanujan, the mostly nearly self-taught mathematician of all time. Heck, Will Hunting is depicted as being much more of a prodigy than John Stuart Mills, the greatest prodigy of all time. Mills was as well-read (and already productive in writing philosophy and economics) at 20 as anyone in history ever was. Mills was taught almost from birth by his father (who was pretty smart himself), who pushed him as much as is conceivably possible. We’re supposed to believe that Will Hunting, with no one to push him, with no one to discuss math with, while spending much of his time drunk and getting into fights with his friends, is able to learn enough math to dazzle a Fields Medalist and to learn enough about subjects like history, law, chemistry, and psychology he would be more well-read than Mills was at 20. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/69 "2004-09-11T05:03:47Z")
Good points, all. I hadn’t realized he had something more advanced than the textbooks most students dump. Probably because i don’t own any math books at all…As for the prodigy bit, I suppose you could always watch it as some sort of fantasy movie. Like that one about the autistic kid who could fly, called, aptly enough, “The Boy Who Could Fly.” Or alternately, just shrug and say “it’s a metaphor.” That’s what I usually fall back on. I don’t like **Good Will Hunting** because Damon and Affleck are a couple of liars. Yes, they wrote a screenplay together. They worked on it for years, and it was about a brilliant young man who worked for the government. However, that was not the movie or the script that was ultimately made. Oliver Stone (entirely uncredited) wrote the script that they won the Oscar for. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/70 "2004-09-11T05:12:33Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Same goes for _Dangerous Liasions_, in the fight scene between John Malkovich and Keanu Reeves. They are absolutely exhausted by the time it ends, even with the pauses that occur when, as they are both gentlemen, each waits for the other to retrieve his dropped weapon! Both are the product of the fight direction of [William Hobbs](http://www.legends.dm.net/swash/sword.html) Hobb’s zenith, however, was _The Duellists_ where the first fight captures the fear of facing an armed opponent. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/71 "2004-09-11T05:23:51Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I don’t like **Good Will Hunting** because Damon and Affleck are a couple of liars. Yes, they wrote a screenplay together. They worked on it for years, and it was about a brilliant young man who worked for the government. However, that was not the movie or the script that was ultimately made. Oliver Stone (entirely uncredited) wrote the script that they won the Oscar for. Really? How did you hear this? A Google search turned up nothing for me. And [William Goldman certainly thinks they wrote it.](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119217/trivia) (That trivia page also gives details that, if true, support the idea they wrote something substantially similar to the finished product, or at least that the initial script wasn’t as completely different as you seem to be suggesting.) I have to admit, though, the idea of a Hollywood conspiracy involving Oliver Stone does strike me as funny… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/72 "2004-09-11T05:27:26Z")
Unfortunately I doubt “My screenwriting prof filled me in” counts as a cite, and in hindsight, I probably shouldn’t have posted at all about it, since I don’t have anything other than “my screenwriting prof told me…” Though she has all sorts of ties and connections to “the Industry” and I trust her, I don’t really expect y’all too. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/73 "2004-09-11T05:28:58Z")
**ianzin** said: > [@](#): > > I haven’t seen the movie, so I can’t comment on it. However, I respectfully disagree that the quotes you cite are evidence of notable insight into either card cheating or second dealing. > > To be suspicious of a ‘mechanic’s grip’ makes no sense on any level. First of all, there’s nothing suspicious about that grip. ‘Mechanic’s grip’ and ‘dealer grip’ are essentially the same thing, and it’s perfectly normal for anyone who is dealing cards to use that grip. It doesn’t suggest any cheating is going on. It just suggests they are accustomed to handling cards and dealing them in the most customary, comfortable and practical way. The typical person (not a professional dealer) who picks up a deck of cards to deal will hold it so that their fingers wrap around the long side of the deck, with the deck rotated so that the index finger slides underneath the bottom of the deck. I assume you’re a magician, so maybe you’ve been doing it so long that a mechanic’s grip is natural to you. But for the average person, it isn’t. If anyone reading this is interested, just pick up something near you roughly the size of a deck of cards or an actual deck if you have one handy. Hold it like you’re preparing to deal a card. Note where your fingers are. It is likely that you are currently holding the deck in the palm of your hand with all four fingers on the long side of the deck, and your thumb on the top of the deck. When you deal, you use your thumb to push a single card onto the tips of your four fingers. The thumb holds the card in this place until the thumb and index finger of the other hand grabs it and deals it across the table. A mechanic grip is different. There are different types, but generally the index and middle finger are stretch around so that they come up under the front of the deck. Some people may do this naturally, but most don’t. Therefore, a mechanic’s grip is evidence that someone \*may be a better card handler than they are making themselves out to be. That was the point of the scene in the movie. > [@](#): > > Secondly, if a card cheat were operating, he wouldn’t give himself away by adopting any kind of special or noticeable grip. A valid point, but it doesn’t change the fact that if you spot someone with that grip, they may in fact be cheating. As for the ‘snap’ when dealing seconds, I just tried it. It’s inconsistent. Under the right level of thumb pressure and location, there is a little ‘click’ as front edges of the first and third cards snap together again. But it’s very subtle, and I’m not sure you could hear it in a room with normal background noise. And a really good mechanic would probably be able to do it silently. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/74 "2004-09-11T20:41:51Z")
Regarding things movies get right: I like that during the fights in LOTR people got really dirty, and well, it looked real. For example, at the end of FOTR when Aragorn fights Lurtz. I have seen lots of movies where people even fights or long treks or whatever don’t look dirty, smudged or stained in the least. This may not really be a detail - it’s actually a pretty big thing to attend to in an action film, fantasy sci-fi or real world. But they don’t always pay attention, and that bugs me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/75 "2004-09-11T21:26:14Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > And so to second dealing. There are two common second dealing techniques - the ‘push off’ and the ‘strike’. I’m not going to describe these techniques because that’s ‘magic secret’ stuff and I don’t do that. The point is that neither technique makes any kind of special sound, not even at a subtle level. Although I do a lot of card sleight of hand, I’m not an expert at second dealing. However, I have had personal demonstrations and tuition from the guy whom I regard as the best second dealer in the world. His name is Simon Lovell, he’s a pro magician based in NY, and he gets paid good money to teach casino chains how to spot customers who are cheating at the card table. His second deals are imperceptible and make no special kind of sound - it just sounds like a card being dealt off the deck, which isn’t much of a sound at all. Other top flight second dealers have also demonstrated their techniques for me, and I assure you there is no give away sound or noise. I haven’t seen the movie, either, and I don’t know dick about cards, but I’d expect a professional magician with a sideline in casino security to be able to do just about any sort of card sleight without being at all perceptible. However, I imagine that a two-bit crook cheating in backroom poker games would be siginificantly less apt. Unless the character is specifically described in the movie as a “top flight second dealer,” it seems likely to me that he’s simply not as good at cheating as the professionals you know. ---
**Author:** ![MikeCollins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbce88/32.png) [@MikeCollins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeCollins)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/76 "2004-09-11T22:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I haven’t seen the movie, either, and I don’t know dick about cards, but I’d expect a professional magician with a sideline in casino security to be able to do just about any sort of card sleight without being at all perceptible. However, I imagine that a two-bit crook cheating in backroom poker games would be siginificantly less apt. Unless the character is specifically described in the movie as a “top flight second dealer,” it seems likely to me that he’s simply not as good at cheating as the professionals you know. Well in the movie Les Murphy (aka Worm or Edward Norton) is just about as professional a card-handler as you can get. He’d been practicing his chops for several years in prison - showing them off to his buddy Mike (Damon) once released. Apparently according to Mike, (in the movie) “he’d become a real artist too… (_mentions several different types of grips and sleights_)” ---
**Author:** ![MikeCollins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbce88/32.png) [@MikeCollins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeCollins)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/77 "2004-09-11T22:07:00Z")
Wagner writes: > [@](#): > > High-level math textbooks are always expensive, even when used. They’re usually kept by the students. The ones that Will Hunting would have had to consult are not textbooks really but the sort of books (and journals) that are only found in university libraries (and maybe on professors’ shelves). I would like someone to elaborate on this please. Is there absolutely _NO WAY_ of getting high-level (such as those discussed about in the film) mathematical text-books outside of university? I mean is there any way of ordering them from somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/78 "2004-09-11T22:40:40Z")
Of course anyone can get high level math textbooks. You can buy them new or used from any university bookstore, or from any second-hand bookstore near a university. Or order them through Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/79 "2004-09-11T22:50:45Z")
The point is that Hunting has thousands and thousands of dollars worth of upper-level math textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959/80 "2004-09-12T00:16:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > However, I imagine that a two-bit crook cheating in backroom poker games would be siginificantly less apt. Unless the character is specifically described in the movie as a “top flight second dealer,” it seems likely to me that he’s simply not as good at cheating as the professionals you know. True, the character in the movie might not be as adept as some real-life pros. Nonetheless, I’m just trying to point out that a second deal doesn’t make a sound, and there’s no reason why it _should_ make a sound. One may argue that this (whether it makes a give-away sound or note) depends on how adept the dealer is. I would respectfully suggest this is not the case. You can either execute a second-deal sufficiently well to use it in a real game, or you can’t. If you can, then it doesn’t make a sound. If you can’t, whether it makes a sound or not is going to be immaterial, because everyone at the table will be able to _see_ that you are second-dealing. There are some sleights you can get away with even if you don’t execute them 100% perfectly. But the second deal isn’t one of them. Either you can do it really well (in which case you can’t see it and you sure as heck can’t hear it) or you can’t (in which case you’ll get nailed the first time you try it, because a less-than-perfect second deal is pretty darn obvious to anyone nearby). The second deal is one of the hardest moves there is, and there are very few guys who ever really master it. I’m very privileged to have met some of them, and to have had my own private demonstration, show and tuition. Sadly, even though I’ve put in the practice, it’s just not a move that works for me, so I have to achieve the same ends via different methods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-movies-technicality-thread-amazing-things-they-got-right/261959.md?page=5)