# Another Niqab Controversy \[Quebec "defense" of French too far?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074 "2010-03-03T01:59:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/141 "2010-03-11T23:00:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Gosh, do we really need to turn this into more of a French vs. English debate than it already is? We were doing such a good job just debating the core issue. If it makes you happy, the English medias in Quebec sides with the CEGEP’s decision to give her the booth. Even some Muslims spokepersons are OK with that decision. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/142 "2010-03-12T00:25:03Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > This is Quebec’s problem, of course; but I for one, would be interested in hearing how inhabitants of other, traditionally-English, provinces would deal with this situation, were it to occur in their province. In a failed effort to learn more of **detop’s** claim for English media’s support of the government within Quebec, I came across this [cite](http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/other-provinces-leery-about-withholding-public-services-due-to-religious-garb-87395347.html) which answer’s your question more directly. > [@](#): > > In the struggle to integrate newcomers to Canada, Quebec has distanced itself from other provinces with its hardline stand against religious face coverings, which is likely to earn it a reputation as either a far-sighted pioneer or intolerant loner. > > Provincial governments in the rest of the country appear leery about setting rules imiting access to public services for people who wear certain forms of religious attire, as Quebec did earlier this week. What’s different about Quebec ? > [@](#): > > “The issue of reasonable accommodation has been more acute in Quebec because of its history in terms of the francophone majority being a vulnerable minority,” said Morton Weinfeld, who holds the chair in Canadian-Ethnic Studies at McGill University. > > “It is very concerned about its cultural integrity and survival.” > > Contributing to the issue is Quebec’s relative lack of ethnic diversity compared with the rest of Canada’s. > > According to the latest Statistics Canada report, only 16 per cent of Montreal’s population was non-white in 2006. That number was actually well below 10 per cent in other population centres, including Quebec City (two per cent) and Saguenay (one per cent). > > Both Vancouver and Toronto have non-white populations of more than 40 per cent. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/143 "2010-03-12T01:05:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So when will you be writing your MP demanding that marriage be made illegal? How about women taking their husband’s last names? Sure. Why not? What use are they that laws regarding co-habitation and child support can’t cover off anyway? It would also put to rest the same sex marriage debate, too. [QUOTE=Cat Whisperer] You could argue that every immigrant who comes to Canada who thinks women are garbage under their feet contributes to undermining _my_ rights. [/QUOTE] I’m not against testing potential immigrants on certain basic values before they are allowed to come here. It’s our country to set the rules on entry. Why let in 8th century barbarians (we’ve got enough of our own to deal with after all)? ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/144 "2010-03-12T01:45:17Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > In a failed effort to learn more of **detop’s** claim for English media’s support of the government within Quebec \ [Here](http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081201/weatherpix_test_new2/20091211/?hub=MontrealHome), click on the March 5th editorial. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/145 "2010-03-12T02:08:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Oh, so now we’re going to prohibit practices that were designed to keep women as property, are we? > > So when will you be writing your MP demanding that marriage be made illegal? How about women taking their husband’s last names? I see your point, but Quebec does make it pretty difficult for women to take their husband’s last name after getting married, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/146 "2010-03-12T04:23:33Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Displaying modesty and (by wearing a veil )is a tradition deeply rooted in her culture. > But displaying equal treatment to everyone (by not wearing a veil) is a tradition deeply rooted in \*my[/] culture. So don’t wear a veil. > [@](#): > > Respect is a two way street…if I respect her cultural values, I expect her to respect mine. Nobody’s asking you to respect her cultural values. If you don’t like her culture, don’t practice it. Personally, I think religion’s stupid, which is why I don’t practice it. Nobody drags me out of bed Sunday morning to go to church, and I don’t stop the Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus from going to their meetings and praying to their imaginary friend. My, how this country is admirably arranged. I vote we do the same thing for fashion choices. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/147 "2010-03-12T04:32:20Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Displaying modesty and (by wearing a veil )is a tradition deeply rooted in her culture. But displaying equal treatment to everyone (by not wearing a veil) is a tradition deeply rooted in \*my[/] culture. You are quite mistaken. Obviously at least some residents of Quebec prefer to wear a veil. Since the lady in question is a Quebec resident she is part of local culture. So some small part of Quebec culture involves wearing a veil Perhaps you ought to respect (and appreciate the diversity of) Quebec society. Unless of course you maintain that majority of people in Quebec can tell the minority what and who the officially approved culture does and doesn’t include. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/148 "2010-03-12T04:36:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I vote we do the same thing for fashion choices. Including going to class naked? See, it’s easy to trivialize something like a _niqab_ as a mere “fashion choice” if you ignore its actual purpose and the actual requirements for its use. But how about something like full public nudity? Is that also just a “fashion choice” that we should let everybody make their own individual decisions about? If not, why not? I notice **Miller** didn’t answer this question either when I asked it a few posts ago. Any of you expansive-_niqab_-rights supporters willing to take it on? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/149 "2010-03-12T05:30:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You are quite mistaken. Obviously at least some residents of Quebec prefer to wear a veil. Since the lady in question is a Quebec resident she is part of local culture. So some small part of Quebec culture involves wearing a veil Perhaps you ought to respect (and appreciate the diversity of) Quebec society. > > Unless of course you maintain that majority of people in Quebec can tell the minority what and who the officially approved culture does and doesn’t include. I thought that was the tradition in Quebec. That’s why our family left the province. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/150 "2010-03-12T06:10:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I notice **Miller** didn’t answer this question either when I asked it a few posts ago. Any of you expansive-_niqab_-rights supporters willing to take it on? I could certainly imagine legal and societal accommodation being made for those who must go naked for religious reasons. Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/151 "2010-03-12T06:16:56Z")
> [@Paul in Qatar](#): > > I could certainly imagine legal and societal accommodation being made for those who must go naked for religious reasons. And you would maintain that society is **obligated** to do so for the sake of religious freedom, just as you claim that society is obligated to do so in the case of the _niqab_? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/152 "2010-03-12T06:23:55Z")
Sure. People who have a religious requirement to be naked are citizens, taxpayers, voters and part of the culture too. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/153 "2010-03-12T06:56:00Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Sure. People who have a religious requirement to be naked are citizens, taxpayers, voters and part of the culture too. They may be citizens, taxpayers, and voters, but they’re not part of the culture. They’re also, considering Quebec winters, pretty cold. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/154 "2010-03-12T07:09:20Z")
Why is a person in Quebec not a part of Quebec culture? Are they unpersons? Obviously culture is a construct of the people who live in a place. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/155 "2010-03-12T08:02:28Z")
She’s not an unperson, but she’s also not Quebecoise. She has a foreign culture and foreign values, and to the extent that this culture and these values conflict with Quebec culture and Quebec values, she needs to be the one to give way, if she wants to live in Quebec. I’d say the same thing about somebody from Quebec if they moved to Egypt. You adopt the culture of the place you live, you don’t demand that that culture change to suit you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/156 "2010-03-12T08:11:11Z")
How could the values of a person in Quebec not be a (small, new) portion of the culture of Quebec? The culture imposing itself on people is exactly backwards; people make impressions upon it. That is how cultures refresh themselves. Why should I behave as a Saudi? Is not my culture worth keeping? It sounds like you are making a “place for everyone and everyone in his place” sort of proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/157 "2010-03-12T08:57:01Z")
> [@Paul in Qatar](#): > > Why should I behave as a Saudi? Well, presumably you behave as a Saudi in certain ways, at least when interacting with strangers, in order to avoid behaviors that are considered discourteous in Saudi society. (I suppose you don’t habitually show people the soles of your feet or shake hands with women, for example.) It’s not really feasible to live in a very different foreign culture and behave just as you would in your own. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/158 "2010-03-12T09:03:28Z")
I am polite because I am polite. But I need not choose to be polite. Politeness is part of me, not forced on me by the some policeman or politician. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/159 "2010-03-12T15:53:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Including going to class naked? No, because laws against public nudity aren’t specifically designed to exclude certain religious groups. The intent of the new rules against niqabs are clearly not meant, despite what some here have claimed, to help women achieve equality. They’re meant, specifically, to be directed at Muslims, because they’re different. Prohibitions against nudity aren’t meant to pick on a specifial racial or religious group. This niqab stuff quite obviously is. And furthermore, if you’re seriously expecting me to buy that full blown nudity is comparable in disruptiveness to wearing a veil, give me a break. > [@](#): > > I’d say the same thing about somebody from Quebec if they moved to Egypt. You adopt the culture of the place you live, you don’t demand that that culture change to suit you. So if I transfer to Egypt to take a job in Cairo, I should be forced to adopt Islam as my religion and not correspond with Jewish friends? Do you think that speaks WELL for Egypt? And incidentally, how has this woman demanding anyone else adopt her culture? She wants to wear a niqab. Has she demanded other women wear them as well? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074/160 "2010-03-12T16:35:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The intent of the new rules against niqabs are clearly not meant, despite what some here have claimed, to help women achieve equality. They’re meant, specifically, to be directed at Muslims, because they’re different. Any CULTURE, not religion. This is not a religious requirement in Islam no matter what she may think or say. > [@](#): > > This niqab stuff quite obviously is. I think it would apply to any group that required their women to hide themselves from society. > [@](#): > > And incidentally, how has this woman demanding anyone else adopt her culture? She wants to wear a niqab. Has she demanded other women wear them as well? She is saying that she won’t treat men and women equally. Women can see her face, men can’t. She is enforcing her misogynous culture upon the rest of us. The fact that she is using taxpayer’s money to do so gives us the right to not give it to her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-niqab-controversy-quebec-defense-of-french-too-far/531074.md?page=9)