# Another of God's great works! \[Haiti earthquake\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936 "2010-01-14T15:09:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/81 "2010-01-15T14:17:23Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I do wish that the Dope’s lesser atheists, who are so quick to congratulate themselves on the cleverness and lack of credulity, might actually put a little fucking effort into this and read any of the hundreds (thousands?) of works written on theodicy, rather than indulge the fatuous fantasy that they are the first in the world to stumble upon this ancient chestnut. > > Alas, neither those works nor, I fear, your post will be taken seriously by this board’s mutual admiration society and its commitment to vapidity. Did any of these hundreds/thousands of works make any headway on the POE? I suspect not, since of all the times I’ve been to church or looked at christian media, “explanations” that appeal to the masses (but which don’t make much sense on reflection) abound. e.g. “This suffering won’t seem like much compared to the infinity of happiness that awaits”. So I shouldn’t mind being slapped around because god’s gonna take me out for ice cream afterwards. If there are good responses to the POE, please, do share. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/82 "2010-01-15T14:36:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Aside from the fact that the concept of “free will” is logical nonsense in itself . . . Why? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ETA the free will defense is no answer at all to natural evil, by the way. What’s the reason for childhood leukemia? What does that have to do with free will? Well? Some people **will** insist on living on an earthquake fault, or below sea level in a hurricane-prone lakeside city, or on being born with cancer-prone genes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/83 "2010-01-15T15:02:03Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Would a 😉 have helped? No. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/84 "2010-01-15T15:04:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? Because something has to generate the will. The will has to be either determined or random. If it’s determined, it’s not free, if it’s random it’s not free. The will cannot determine itself. That leads to infinite regress. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/85 "2010-01-15T15:05:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > imperfect Bravo! That was a fun story. The girlie side of God does evil things with her body (and Satan), but manly-God is gonna put that bitch in check. The problem isn’t how you all justify or redefine your imaginary friend. It is the fact that adults insist on having one at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/86 "2010-01-15T15:09:01Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I suspect not, since of all the times I’ve been to church or looked at christian media, “explanations” that appeal to the masses (but which don’t make much sense on reflection) abound. > e.g. “This suffering won’t seem like much compared to the infinity of happiness that awaits”. So I shouldn’t mind being slapped around because god’s gonna take me out for ice cream afterwards. Well, I guess if I were interested in **Mijin** ’s personal experience of religious life, your reaction to things would be relevant. As it is, I’m not, and so your own personal exposure to ideas or recollection of what those are (the afterlife is only one of many, and not one usually proffered by serious thinkers) and how much you are impressed by them are pretty uninteresting. If, on the other hand, you would like to talk about ideas—and not a diary of the feelings experienced by **Mijin** at Mass—I’d be willing to engage that discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/87 "2010-01-15T15:09:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well? Some people **will** insist on living on an earthquake fault, or below sea level in a hurricane-prone lakeside city, or on being born with cancer-prone genes. So you want your God but be able to tell people to “Eat it!” too? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/88 "2010-01-15T15:14:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? > > Well? Some people **will** insist on living on an earthquake fault, or below sea level in a hurricane-prone lakeside city, or on being born with cancer-prone genes. The first 2 can be changed by an act of will - the last one can’t, unless medical science has a technological breakthrough. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/89 "2010-01-15T15:22:16Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > When a massive tragedy like the Haiti earthquake strikes, Christians respond by sending relief and rescue workers, fundraising for survivors and the rebuilding effort, prayer, solidarity, and compassion. Atheists, or at least the ones in this thread, respond with nastiness. Atheist here, happy to send useful stuff like aid workers and assist in fundraising. The less time spent praying, the more time available for helping, I’d rather have an atheist aid worker than a religious one anyday. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/90 "2010-01-15T15:24:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t be a jerk, **What the … !!!**. You must have thought I was happy with the outcome thinking it was “excellent”. I guess it’s normal to prejudge and assume the worst. In a thread designed to beat up on “religious hoohaws” I thought it perfectly appropriate to invoke Darwin. I’d never call the guy a jerk though. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/91 "2010-01-15T15:39:56Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > If, on the other hand, you would like to talk about ideas—and not a diary of the feelings experienced by **Mijin** at Mass—I’d be willing to engage that discussion. Well that’s what I was trying to do. I was saying that in my experience I’ve only heard bad arguments (such as _X_), do you have an example of a good one? And you’ve responded by: 1. chastising me for mentioning my experiences 2. implying (again) that good arguments exist 3. neglecting (again) to provide any examples Yes; I’d like to discuss arguments/theory for understanding the POE. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/92 "2010-01-15T16:12:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But what’s free will-y about a natural disaster ? It’s not like you chose to live on the path of a future & unforeseen tsunami, or that your choices (or lack thereof) caused the tsunami. **Free Will-y**? How did killer whales get mixed up in this? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/93 "2010-01-15T16:55:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I suspect not, since of all the times I’ve been to church or looked at christian media, “explanations” that appeal to the masses (but which don’t make much sense on reflection) abound. > e.g. “This suffering won’t seem like much compared to the infinity of happiness that awaits”. Why do you say that this doesn’t make much sense? Certainly, it is not, by itself, a definitive answer to the Problem Of Evil—and if it was presented as such, you are right to scoff. But as a response to at least _some_ human suffering, it is both (1) likely to be true if Christianity is true, and (2) comforting if one believes it to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/94 "2010-01-15T17:10:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well that’s what I was trying to do. > > I was saying that in my experience I’ve only heard bad arguments (such as _X_), do you have an example of a good one? > > And you’ve responded by: > > 1. chastising me for mentioning my experiences > 2. implying (again) that good arguments exist > 3. neglecting (again) to provide any examples > Yes; I’d like to discuss arguments/theory for understanding the POE. I can answer your questions for you since I’ve read the the various theodicies (which I doubt **Kimmy** has). The answer is that no, no one has ever devised a defense to the POE that really holds up. And despite the protestations of those who say that there are “thousands of pages” written about, those pages really only represent a small handful of defenses that get reiterated _ad nauseum_. The POE can be simplified as thus: It is impossible for all four of the following statements to be simultaneously true. \*\*1. God is omnipotent. 1. God is omniscient. 2. God is omnibenevolent. 3. Evil exists.\*\* If 1 and 2 are true, then evil can’t exist without God’s will. If evil can’t exist without God’s will, then 3 is false. God’s “goodness” is a _sine qua non_ for worship, so the most common defense is to postulate a higher “good” which is being served by the allowance of evil. One very common, but essentially empty response is the “mysterious ways” argument (if that can be called an argument") which basically just says “We can’t understand God’s reason. We can’t see everything he sees.” etc. We just have to stop trying to understand God with our puny little brains and have faith. This is putting the cart before the horse, of course, but it also doesn’t hold up to logic, since the complexity of God’s “plan” is immaterial. If the first statement above is true (God is omnipotent), then God doesn’t need a plan. Omnipotent beings don’t require means to ends. They need only will the end. If no plan is necessary, then no evil is necessary, and we’re back to either 3. being false or 1. being false. Another common (and currently most chic) apologetic in the “greater good” vein is the Free will defense. I alredy briefly addressed that upthread. basically it says that God allows people to do evil so as not to interfere with their free will. To reiterate what I’ve already stated upthread. This fails not only because the notion of free will is nonsense in itself, but because God can still allow free will (such as it is) without allowing evil simply by only creating people who will freely choose good. If God is omniscient, he will know this before he creates them. Another tactic is to do what **Kimmy** did which is to attempt to change the definition of God so as not to include either omnipotence or omniscience, but as I pointed out upthread, this just amounts to a concession of the argument. The POE contradicts an omnimax God, not a non-omnimax God. All of the thousands of pages written devoted to formulating theodicies essentially break down into various iterations of one of the above defenses. There are not really a lot of them, and there are no good ones. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/95 "2010-01-15T17:40:30Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > Great! Fortunately I feel no like need to reexamine my thoughts on how many angels can dance on pinheads. Sixteen. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/96 "2010-01-15T17:57:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I can answer your questions for you since I’ve read the the various theodicies (which I doubt **Kimmy** has). > > The answer is that no, no one has ever devised a defense to the POE that really holds up. And despite the protestations of those who say that there are “thousands of pages” written about, those pages really only represent a small handful of defenses that get reiterated _ad nauseum_. > > The POE can be simplified as thus: It is impossible for all four of the following statements to be simultaneously true. > \*\*1. God is omnipotent. > > 1. God is omniscient. > > 2. God is omnibenevolent. > > 3. Evil exists.\*\* > > If 1 and 2 are true, then evil can’t exist without God’s will. If evil can’t exist without God’s will, then 3 is false. God’s “goodness” is a _sine qua non_ for worship, so the most common defense is to postulate a higher “good” which is being served by the allowance of evil. One very common, but essentially empty response is the “mysterious ways” argument (if that can be called an argument") which basically just says “We can’t understand God’s reason. We can’t see everything he sees.” etc. We just have to stop trying to understand God with our puny little brains and have faith. This is putting the cart before the horse, of course, but it also doesn’t hold up to logic, since the complexity of God’s “plan” is immaterial. If the first statement above is true (God is omnipotent), then God doesn’t need a plan. Omnipotent beings don’t require means to ends. They need only will the end. If no plan is necessary, then no evil is necessary, and we’re back to either 3. being false or 1. being false. > > Another common (and currently most chic) apologetic in the “greater good” vein is the Free will defense. I alredy briefly addressed that upthread. basically it says that God allows people to do evil so as not to interfere with their free will. To reiterate what I’ve already stated upthread. This fails not only because the notion of free will is nonsense in itself, but because God can still allow free will (such as it is) without allowing evil simply by only creating people who will freely choose good. If God is omniscient, he will know this before he creates them. > > Another tactic is to do what **Kimmy** did which is to attempt to change the definition of God so as not to include either omnipotence or omniscience, but as I pointed out upthread, this just amounts to a concession of the argument. The POE contradicts an omnimax God, not a non-omnimax God. > > All of the thousands of pages written devoted to formulating theodicies essentially break down into various iterations of one of the above defenses. There are not really a lot of them, and there are no good ones. This is certainly an adequate summary of the problem of theodicy, and as I mentioned, I don’t think very new information to anyone in this thread. The responses tend to divide into two great camps: those that reject one of the three standard premises and those that try to stake out a compatibilist position. There is a kernel of some worthwhile thinking in **Dio** ’s paragraphs after his bulleted list. Unfortunately, they come wrapped in the Diogenized packaging of tiresome personal attacks and blowhardy assertions of irrelevance. This makes most people disinclined to engage **Dio** in any kind of conversation, and certainly I do not plan to either. Perhaps he could get a spokesperson one day. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/97 "2010-01-15T18:00:55Z")
What "personal “attacks?” What “assertions of irrelevance?” ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/98 "2010-01-15T18:04:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What "personal “attacks?” What “assertions of irrelevance?” Sorry, but I’m immune to **Dio** bait these days. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/99 "2010-01-15T18:07:35Z")
So Pat Robertson is a man of faith, and is regarded as a leader by a large portion of the faith-based community, and his faith led him to believe that the Haitians made a pact with the devil. So if those of you of faith do not believe in what Robertson said, then why should those of us without faith put any stock at all into _your_ faith-based beliefs? Aren’t you just as likely to be wrong as dear old Pat? For that matter, why should you yourself have any confidence in your own faith-based beliefs if someone like Pat Robertson is so misled by his faith? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936/100 "2010-01-15T18:08:16Z")
Sorry, but if you’re going to make accusations, I’d like you to clarify and not run away. Who did I “personally attack” in that thread? The only thing even close was that I said I doubted you had read much POE apologia. If you took that as a personal attack, my apologies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-of-gods-great-works-haiti-earthquake/524936.md?page=6)