# Another One for the Memory Hole? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644 "2004-05-11T16:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/81 "2004-05-13T21:44:15Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > “do **us** a favor”?? What’s this “us” business? Are you all on the same team or something? Actually, no, but that is not to say that I am on your side either. Frankly, I would like to see people like you genuinely debated without the rather gargoylish infantilism in this thread. Your premise obviously is flawed, and you have supplied your own evidence against it. News of the event obviously was reported. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/82 "2004-05-13T22:09:31Z")
So, the Israeli people collectively want to destroy America, and the American media is part of a conspiracy to cover this up for some reason. Right on, **Razor**. > [@Razorsharp](#): > > I don’t have any idea what the Israelis were up to, but, from what little has been reported, it seems that they were up to no good. Usually true when it involves a car chase, I guess… > [@](#): > > What I do realize is, the establishment media will supress information that is not favorable to Israel’s masquerade as America’s most beloved ally. Cite that the media suppress information related to Israel? Explanation why the media are in league with the evil Israelis? Cite that the actions of a couple of dorks in a moving van have anything to do with the Israeli government? > [@](#): > > For instance, the Israelis that were caught high-fivin’ and dancin’ the Hora while videotaping the World Trade Center crumbling to the ground, taking the lives of 3000 innocent Americans. ‘The Israelis’. Funny, I seem to remember the Israeli government denouncing the attack… and seeing reports of a handful or ordinary citizens in Israel cheering the WTC attack. So… obviously, if _those_ guys in Israel were happy about it, _these_ guys _from_ Israel must be part of the plot to blow it up! Wait… Cite that Israelis, and not al-Qaida Arabs (mainly Saudi) or Mystical Iraqi Death Pixies blew up the WTC? Or how 'bout an explanation why Israelis, by and large, would want to do nasty things to America? Newsflash: I know a guy in Canada… in the Canadian military, in fact, who, when he heard about the attacks, said ‘Oh, it’s about time.’ So, obviously… OMG the Canucks are in on it TOO! The Royal Canadian Horse Artillery are gonna smash the statue of Lincoln with their bayonets! Or, maybe it was just a jerkish thing to say, and he has nothing to do with it and Canada ISN’T ‘masquerading as America’s ally’. > [@](#): > > Of course, it was newsworthy when it was being reported that the men were “arab-looking”, but when it turned out to be five Israelis, then the story goes down the “memory-hole”. Nobody 'members it anymore, eh? Or… could it be, that the evidence suggested it was al-Qaida, so the cheering Israelis were probably just pricks? Or guys who got fired by some nasty boss on floor 53 of the north tower? > [@](#): > > So, Israelis celebrating the attack on the WTC in not newsworthy? Hell, I expect that kind of behavior from America’s enemys. What I don’t expect, and what most certainly is newsworthy, is that type of behavior from so-called allies. Especially allies that have been the beneficiaries of more aid, thanks to the American taxpayer, than any other nation. Aid that has provided modern-day Israel a comparatively high standard of living. Which brings us to the reason that the establishment media supresses information not favorable to Neo-Israel’s image. Ordinary Israeli citizens are _not_ America’s ally! America’s ally is the Israeli government. Not all Israelis agree with the government’s positions. Not all Israelis like America. Not all Israelis want to destroy America. But what you said there does make sense… The Israeli government plotting to destroy America _IS_ pretty inconsistent with siding with America on almost everything, and getting loads of aid from America. I’m glad you pointed that out. Now I understand how unlikely it is that the Israeli government is covertly trying to destroy the USA. > [@](#): > > The establishment media realizes that the reporting of such incidents could lead to the asking of some uncomfortable questions, such as, “How did five Israelis, who were here illegally, know what they were cheering for?” Step 1: Some guys, here illegally, have an apartment with a TV. Step 2: These guys are mad at the USA and it’s government for making it such a hassle to be here _legally_. Or had a grudge against someone working there. Or just plain hated American architecture. Or were just jerks. Step 3: The WTC blows up. Step 4: These guys see it on TV. Or in person, like a bazillion people in New York. Step 5: They cheer! Dancing and Joy! Stupid, arrogant American government! It’s about time something happened to your citizens and your country! We, like so many people, can’t tell the difference between a government and the people of that country! Burn WTC! And that’s how they knew what they were cheering for. You don’t have to have been part of the plot to be glad it happened. You don’t have to be a firefighter to be sad a house burned down, either. > [@](#): > > … and could ultimately lead to many Americans objecting as to how their tax-dollars are being spent with regard to foreign aid. Yeah, the media would _hate_ a scandal. > [@](#): > > But, you can bet your last shekel, that had it been a group of men celebrating the attack on America that the establishment media could link to a “right-wing extremist group”, the establishment media would still yet occasionally remind the populace of the treachery. Oh, yeah, 'cause the media is SOOO left-wing. Just like the government. That’s the problem, really. Too many liberals in there, not enough wild conspiracy theorists. You should shine up your tinfoil hat a little and go teach them a lesson. **Razor** , this theory of yours is a little… silly. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/83 "2004-05-13T22:28:48Z")
“Gargoylish infantilism”, huh? Well, if I’m being so accused, it’s a new one on me. “Gargoylish infantilism”. Yeah, I kind of like it. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/84 "2004-05-13T22:44:15Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > I don’t have any idea what the Israelis were up to, but, from what little has been reported, it seems that they were up to no good. Will you concede that two tourists working illegally and possibly being involved in a moving company scam wouldn’t really be a nationwide story? If not that, what were these guys supposedly doing? > [@](#): > > And now that the Feds have swooped in and taken custody of the criminals, the state investigation has been thwarted. The state investigation is for reckless driving, evading arrest, littering and false identification. That sort of crime doesn’t even make local news except in a very small town. Besides, the Feds didn’t “swoop in” and take custody of the criminals, thereby thwarting the state investigation. The two bonded out on $10,000 and $500 bonds on their state charges, and were then turned over to Immigration. The county is likely relieved they bonded out, as it saved them the headache of housing, feeding, and prosecuting the two for relatively minor crimes when they’re just going to be deported anyway. Immigration doesn’t deport suspected terrorists, either. > [@](#): > > What I do realize is, the establishment media will supress information that is not favorable to Israel’s masquerade as America’s most beloved ally. > > For instance, the Israelis that were caught high-fivin’ and dancin’ the Hora while videotaping the World Trade Center crumbling to the ground, taking the lives of 3000 innocent Americans. ABC didn’t suppress it; they made [this report](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html): > [@](#): > > Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. “They seemed to be taking a movie,” Maria said. > > The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men’s faces. “They were like happy, you know … They didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange,” she said. Inappropriate behavior, but far from high fives and dancing. From the sound of it, they weren’t so much celebrating as they were unbecomingly nonchalant, as they themselves admitted: > [@](#): > > Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/85 "2004-05-13T23:48:19Z")
Man. . .you just can’t let go and refuse to be happy until you’ve managed to make this into so very much more than it was, is or ever will be. Even in your fevered imaginings. First things first, if these were really two nefarious evildoers as you have tried repeatedly to show, there is no way in hell that they would have been let out on $2500 & $5000 bails. Or are you ready to start claiming that this conspiracy claptrap includes the sheriff and judge in question? And I hesitate to speak for anyone else, but when **I** hear, “high speed chase” I’m inclined to think that speeds in excess of seventy miles per were reached. Which would make for a frightfully short-lived chase since it only covered 2 1/2 miles. Y’see, **these** are some of the reasons that people chortle when they see that you have posted some new bit of tripe. And has been pointed out to you, the government of Israel is in no way analogous to every Israeli citizen. And if you wanna be taken seriously, you might look into coming up with a cite and source that doesn’t sell videos that not only refer to conspiracy theories, but use the word “Conspiracy” so prominently in their titles. And just because it can’t be hammered into your head often enough, the US wouldn’t deport a couple of people who are suspected terrorists. Not to mention that the lengths you go to to try and establish a link between the mainstream media and their nefarious covering up of anything that would show Israel in a bad light are ludicrous. I mean, have you never **read** the liberal handbook? We **hate** Israel. Hell, watch FOX news and listen to Bill O’Reilly. Sheesh! Waste ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/86 "2004-05-14T02:47:41Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Actually, no, but that is not to say that I am on your side either. Frankly, I would like to see people like you genuinely debated without the rather gargoylish infantilism in this thread. Your premise obviously is flawed, and you have supplied your own evidence against it. News of the event obviously was reported. **Libertarian** , while I welcome debate of the premise, I’m unclear as to what purpose it would serve. Having debated him at length in the hate crimes thread, it seems to me that **Razorsharp** is deliberately and eagerly dishonest in Great Debates threads. Deliberate dishonesty in a debate is fatal to the conversation, in my experience; arguing with a liar is an exercise in futility. I’d much rather see folks ignore **Razorsharp’s** snide and incoherent innuendo than respond to it with insults; it’d be better to let it drop into obscurity. However, I don’t really see that debating his OPs is particularly helpful to anyone. Nevertheless, if you do think it’d be helpful, I’d be interested to see you give it a go, see if you have a different experience with the lad than I had. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/87 "2004-05-14T03:04:53Z")
Ok, we now know that there is nothing to this, but I’m still trying to concoct a terrorist scenario involving airplanes, a nuclear fuel plant, and a vial of something. An airplane and a nuke plant, I see see a plot there. A suspcious vial and, say, a water plant, I can see that plot. But once you’ve got the airplane and the nuke plant in the mix, I’m at a loss to see how the tin foil types would get all hyped up over a vial. Doesn’t seem to add much to the “airplanes as missiles” thing. Oh, right, they were Jews. Maybe the vial held those spooky spirits that came out of the Ark of the Covenant in the first Indiana Jones movie. That would kick ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/88 "2004-05-14T04:20:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > An airplane and a nuke plant, I see see a plot there. A suspcious vial and, say, a water plant, I can see that plot. But once you’ve got the airplane and the nuke plant in the mix, I’m at a loss to see how the tin foil types would get all hyped up over a vial. Doesn’t seem to add much to the “airplanes as missiles” thing. Isn’t it obvious? The fluid in the vial was an experimental “instant 747” mixture, which, when exposed to enough nuclear radiation, will expand into a full-sized airplane. The men in the truck – that is, if indeed they _were_ men… how do we know they weren’t hermaphrodites, or shapeshifting lizards? Anyway, the individuals in the truck – er, well, they may have been two sprouts of an alien hive mind, which would mean they weren’t really individual. Whoever or whatever was in the truck _clearly_ intended to use nuclear fuel rods to expand their instant jet, then tow it to the flight school, where they would learn how to fly the plane. Finally, they obviously planned to crash the plane into IKEA’s headquarters, eliminating the mail-order furniture business and forcing consumers to hire them to move furniture from stores. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/89 "2004-05-14T12:04:13Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > ABC didn’t suppress it; they made [this report](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html): > > Inappropriate behavior, but far from high fives and dancing. From the sound of it, they weren’t so much celebrating as they were unbecomingly nonchalant, as they themselves admitted: More than nine months after the 9/11 attacks, the ABC “news magazine”, 20/20, hosted by Barbara Walters and John Miller, gave the cover-up a booster shot. ABC’s interview with the lady, referred to only as “Maria”, who witnessed the “suspicious” behavior, consisted of probably less than a minute of air-time. In this brief interview, Maria said, “They seemed to be taking a movie.” “The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background.” ABC reported that what struck Maria were the expressions on the men’s faces. “They were like happy, you know … They didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange,” she said. I think it’s strange too. Not expressions on faces, but the idea of the behavior of the suspects initially being described as “cries of joy and mockery”, is now aired as “They were like happy, you know…” I would like to have seen the expression on the janitor’s face when saw 20/20’s cutting-room floor. (NOTE: 20/20 excerpts in quotes.) > [@](#): > > The liscense plate was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police. > > The arresting officers said they saw a lot that aroused their suspicion about the men. One of the passengers had $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock. Another was carrying two foreign passports. But perhaps the biggest surprise for the officers came when the five men identified themselves as Israeli citizens. > > According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan “during the incident” - referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” Yeah, Sivan knows who the problem is. > [@](#): > > The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. When the men were transferred to jail, the case was transferred out of the FBI’s Criminal Division, and into the bureau’s Foreign Counterintelligence Section, which is responsible for espionage cases, ABCNEWS has learned. > > One reason for the shift, sources told ABCNEWS, was that the FBI believed Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation. > > After the five men were arrested, the FBI got a warrant and searched Urban Moving’s Weehawken, N.J., offices. > > The FBI searched Urban Moving’s offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. The FBI also questioned Urban Moving’s owner. His attorney insists that his client answered all of the FBI’s questions. But when FBI agents tried to interview him again a few days later, he was gone. > > Three months later 2020’s cameras photographed the inside of Urban Moving, and it looked as if the business had been shut down in a big hurry. Cell phones were lying around; office phones were still connected; and the property of dozens of clients remained in the warehouse. The owner had also cleared out of his New Jersey home, put it up for sale and returned with his family to Israel. Who in the world could think that the Israelis would have something to hide? All they did was just shut down the business and head back to Israel, leaving cutomers in the lurch and not even bothering to turn off the utilities. Why, that’s just standard practice, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives. > > Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities’ interest in the case was heightened when some of the men’s names were found in a search of a national intelligence database. > > According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area.” > > Under this scenario, the alleged spying operation was not aimed against the United States, but at penetrating or monitoring radical fund-raising and support networks in Muslim communities like Paterson, N.J., which was one of the places where several of the hijackers lived in the months prior to Sept. 11. Oh well, if that’s the case, then foreign nationals coming into the United States to spy is acceptable? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks - then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country. And of course, an Israeli would never consider spying on the United States, afterall, we’re allies. > [@](#): > > The men denied that they had been working for Israeli intelligence out of the New Jersey moving company, and Ram Horvitz, their Israeli attorney, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculous.” > > Mark Regev, the spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, goes even further, asserting the issue was never even discussed with U.S. officials. > > “These five men were not involved in any intelligence operation in the United States, and the American intelligence authorities have never raised this issue with us,” Regev said. “The story is simply false.” “Stupid and ridiculous.”, “The story is simply false.” I am reminded of Shakespear; “Thou dost protest too much”. > [@](#): > > Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, “To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11.” Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. Okay, no evidence of pre-knowledge. That still does not excuse the behavior. The behavior was reprehensible and casts an unfavorable light on our most beloved “ally”. And it is equally reprehensible for our so-called “free press” to intentionally kill an obvious newsworthy story for the benefit of a foreign interest. > [@](#): > > The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted. > > As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn’t see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct. The FBI confiscated the suspects film and admitted that the suspects were smiling in the pictures, but 20/20 didn’t show it’s viewing audience any of the pictures or video. I suppose that ABC was prevented from showing the pictures for reasons of “national security”. Yeah, that’s it, “national security”. The story closed with this telltale exchange: > [@](#): > > Barbara Walters: “We hope that this puts an end to the controversy.” > > John Miller: “Well, at least we tried.” Ah, at long last, we get to some truth. That is exactly what happened. ABC and 20/20, rather than objectively report a story, tried to “put an end to the controversy”. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/90 "2004-05-14T21:34:34Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > Cite that the media suppress information related to Israel? USS Liberty > [@](#): > > Explanation why the media are in league with the evil Israelis? Media’s upper echelons predominately Jewish. > [@](#): > > Cite that the actions of a couple of dorks in a moving van have anything to do with the Israeli government? News that **one of the two Israeli ‘movers’ belonged to that country’s political elite** might have proven useful in the criminal investigation underway in rural North Carolina and Tennessee, where the two men led authorities on a high-speed chase in a rented moving van last weekend. However, the investigation was halted Wednesday, after the men were released from Unicol County Jail to the custody of federal officials from the INS, where they face only a deportation hearing. [http://www.madcowprod.com](http://www.madcowprod.com) > [@](#): > > Funny, I seem to remember the Israeli government denouncing the attack… You know what I remember from the Israeli government that was really funny? Right after the attack, former Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed both houses of congress and uttered this perversion. “(paraphrase) The terrorists don’t hate America because of Israel, the hate Israel because of America.” And then had the chutzpah to repeat “the big lie” to all of America on the network morning shows. And not one of the hosts dared to question those words. Well, if they hate Israel because of America, then I’ve got a solution that will solve all of Israel’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/91 "2004-05-14T21:44:32Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > …Right after the attack, former Prime Minister Netanyahu addressed both houses of congress and uttered this perversion. “(paraphrase) The terrorists don’t hate America because of Israel, the hate Israel because of America.” > > And then had the chutzpah to repeat “the big lie” to all of America on the network morning shows. And not one of the hosts dared to question those words. > > Well, if they hate Israel because of America, then I’ve got a solution that will solve all of Israel’s problems. [Here is a link to what Benny actually said.](http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/netanyahu.htm) What you may be referring to: > [@](#): > > For the Bin Ladens of the world Israel is merely a sideshow. America is the target. But reestablishing a resurgent Islam requires not just rolling back the West; it requires destroying its main engine, the United States. And if the U.S. cannot be destroyed just now, it can be first humiliated – as in the Teheran hostage crisis two decades ago – and then ferociously attacked again and again, until it is brought to its knees. But the ultimate goal remains the same: Destroy America and win eternity. Some of you may find it hard to believe that Islamic militants truly cling to the mad fantasy of destroying America. Make no mistake about it. They do. And unless they are stopped now their attacks will continue, and become even more lethal in the future. Nothing about hating Israel because of America. But maybe the Zionist Occupation Government has blocked that part out? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/92 "2004-05-14T22:45:53Z")
Benjamin also said that established states have carte blanche as to what they do, in the name of fighting ‘terrorism’. Doesn’t it occur to him and others that the rebels and terrorists are fighting the established states in order to raise the cost of that ‘carte blanche’ to intolerable levels? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/93 "2004-05-14T23:12:25Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > Benjamin also said that established states have carte blanche as to what they do, in the name of fighting ‘terrorism’. Doesn’t it occur to him and others that the rebels and terrorists are fighting the established states in order to raise the cost of that ‘carte blanche’ to intolerable levels? :dubious: Much like the sage advice provided to Red Leader during the run on the Death Star, I implore you to ‘Stay on target’. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/94 "2004-05-14T23:25:34Z")
Speaking of “the Big Lie”: > [@](#): > > Media’s upper echelons predominately Jewish. _Predominantly_? More tin-foil cap nonsense better suited to be spewed at the SF site. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/95 "2004-05-15T10:14:39Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > [Here is a link to what Benny actually said.](http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/netanyahu.htm) > > What you may be referring to: > > Nothing about hating Israel because of America. But maybe the Zionist Occupation Government has blocked that part out? No, he repeated “the big lie” in this interview. > [@](#): > > They don’t hate America because of Israel. They hate Israel because of America. They think that we are merely an outpost of the three Western democratic civilizations that they hate so much. > [http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/16/165355.shtml](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/16/165355.shtml) See, ZOG has even got you under their control. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/96 "2004-05-15T10:32:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Libertarian** , while I welcome debate of the premise, I’m unclear as to what purpose it would serve. Having debated him at length in the hate crimes thread, it seems to me that **Razorsharp** is deliberately and eagerly dishonest in Great Debates threads. Deliberate dishonesty in a debate is fatal to the conversation, in my experience; arguing with a liar is an exercise in futility. > > I’d much rather see folks ignore **Razorsharp’s** snide and incoherent innuendo than respond to it with insults; it’d be better to let it drop into obscurity. However, I don’t really see that debating his OPs is particularly helpful to anyone. > > Nevertheless, if you do think it’d be helpful, I’d be interested to see you give it a go, see if you have a different experience with the lad than I had. > > Daniel Simply debate the post rather than the poster. That way, you needn’t worry over his tactics. Dishonesty may be fatal, but only to the dishonest poster’s argument. As I showed above, he has provided his own counter-example to his own premise. His argument therefore fails. There need be nothing further than the repetition of that single point. It’s over. His argument is defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/97 "2004-05-15T12:54:31Z")
And repeated the “talking point” again in this interview with Britt Hume. > [@](#): > > **HUME** : Mr. Netanyahu, there will be those who will say, that, well, of course Benjamin Netanyahu will react that way, because, after all, it is Israel that is really at the heart, and America’s support of Israel that is really the cause of all this. > He and other Israelis will be worried that America might withdraw its support for Israel, so of course he will portray this as a war that is a war on the United States. How do you react to that argument? > **NETANYAHU** : Well, that’s a common misperception. > These militant Islamics don’t hate America because of Israel. It’s the other way around. They hate Israel because of America. [http://www.greatdreams.com/trade\_day4.htm](http://www.greatdreams.com/trade_day4.htm) This falls under the catagory of “if you repeat a lie often enough,…” > [@](#): > > They see us – by the way, correctly – as an outpost of common values, our common values of freedom. That is, with the exception of those indigenous to the land. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/98 "2004-05-15T12:57:43Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > No, he repeated “the big lie” in this interview.See, ZOG has even got you under their control. Nice. Again you demonstrate that the foundation of your paranoia rests on treating denials as affirmations, turns of phrase as conspiracy, not to mention generally making stuff up. Netanyahu throughout the interview says things such as > [@](#): > > No, I don’t think you need an instantaneous reaction, and actually I am very impressed with the strength that is communicated by the American people, its government, its citizens, the people of New York, the leadership of New York, Mayor Giuliani. I think it is admirable. I think there is self-constraint, self control, there’s enormous grief, but there’s also patriotic strength and a feeling that all the democracies have to unite in order to slay this evil. I think America projects strength, not weakness. and in the tiny quote you rip from the interview is in fact responding to a _direct_ question asking whether the terrorists hate America because of its support for Israel. What do you expect him to say? “Yeah, it’s all our fault”? ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/99 "2004-05-15T14:25:23Z")
> [@Libertarian](#): > > Simply debate the post rather than the poster. That way, you needn’t worry over his tactics. Dishonesty may be fatal, but only to the dishonest poster’s argument. As I showed above, he has provided his own counter-example to his own premise. His argument therefore fails. There need be nothing further than the repetition of that single point. It’s over. His argument is defeated. > [@](#): > > Your premise obviously is flawed, and you have supplied your own evidence against it. News of the event obviously was reported. Just because the incident was reported, does not make the primise flawed. The degree of reporting has much to do with the public’s perception. The “Arab-looking men” that were celebrating the attack on the WTC was initially reported, and, I would say, generated much interest as to just who would be so callous as to be celebrating such a tragedy. Then, when the identities of the celebrants were discovered, the media then decided that a group of men celebrating the deaths of 3000 innocent people, “with cries of joy and mockery”, wasn’t as newsworthy. From my own perspective, I truly believe that if the celebrants had been found to be Arabic, as originally thought, the event would have garnered more media exposure. [hijack]Now, as for the thread that stained LHoD’s knickers, the same premise was put forth. When the assault on Supreme Court Justice David Souter was reported, the race of his assailants was not mentioned, I then made the prediction that the attackers were of a minority, and the media deliberately withheld that information to keep the public’s perception in line with the politically-correct party line that it is minorities that are the victims of interracial crime and whites as the prepetrators. As an example, I said that if Justice Thomas had been assaulted by several white youths, the race of his attackers would have been mentioned just to keep the public’s perception in tune with the party line. As another example of media bias , I compared the coverage of the murders comitted by Reginald and Johnathan Carr with the James Byrd dragging death. Yes, both were reported, but one was used as a cause celebre, the other virtually ignored. This sent LHoD and his compatriots into a hissy-fit, demanding that I prove that both instances were hate crimes, when the issue was how the media reports interracial crime. And now he is over here calling me a liar and being critical of my debating tactics.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/100 "2004-05-15T15:14:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I said that if Justice Thomas had been assaulted by several white youths, the race of his attackers would have been mentioned just to keep the public’s perception in tune with the party line. No they would not. The media has refrained from providing the race of either the assailant or the victim in initial stories for years. The _only_ exceptions are those such as the Byrd murder in which the explicit motive was racial hatred. Run through the crime reports of any newspaper or TV news show for a month. How many mention _any_ race (victim or perpetrator)? Throughout the early part of the 20th century, the media reported the race of a victim or perpetrator _only_ when a person was not white. All they did was drop that practice of reporting race, at all, until race is shown to be germain to the crime. If one has a desperate need to demonize some group because of their race, this is probably a distressing trend. However, to most of us, the race of either the assailant or victim is not really relevant. Mr. Byrd’s murder was prompted by the racial attitudes of his assailants. The Carr brothers were motivated by greed and sadism. Race bears on the actions of John William King and his buddies. No evidence has ever been presented that the Carr brothers even cared about race. (Throughout the entire multiple hour event and the two robberies that preceded it, the only racial comment reported by any victim was a single line in which one of the Carr brothers asked a woman if she had ever “been with” a black man.) I would be interested in seeing any identification of an assailant as “white” in the last month (other than cases where a description is provided for an as yet uncaptured suspect). Can you actually find any examples in the mainstream media? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644.md?page=6)