# Another One for the Memory Hole? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644 "2004-05-11T16:42:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/101 "2004-05-15T16:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because the incident was reported, does not make the primise flawed. The degree of reporting has much to do with the public’s perception. Nope, your premise is indeed flawed, and fatally. You take three incidents cherry-picked over the course of more than thirty years to construct an elaborate theory, apparently, that Israel is actually an enemy of its largest benefactor, completely ignoring the many thousands of facts that would tend to negate your premise. Concerning your absurd views of the news media, you seem to somehow expect news outlets to guess what your personal prejudices are and write stories exclusively geared towards confirming them. Journalism doesn’t work that way, and it is perfectly obvious that you know next to nothing about the journalistic process. There’s no such thing as ‘the memory hole’, and you can use that term till you are blue in the face; it will remain meaningless. Anyone who wishes to can find scads of information on on subjects such as the _Liberty_, the three, or five or however many guys who supposedly celebrated the falling of the WTC, or any other of the items you mentioned; hell, you found them via publicly available sources, didn’t you? The **Liberty** incident happened in 1967, for cryin’ out loud; how many stories from 1967 are routinely rehashed today, and why is this incident more important than any other thing that happened in 1967? But the main reason your premise is full of shit is that you have worked backwards along the chain of inference: you have clearly begun from the notion that Jews are a secret, closed society, control the media and are trying to run the world (all arguably false assertions); then looked for facts, however tenuous, that support your prejudices, rather than starting from a neutral point and following the facts where they lead you. Lastly, if you feel so strongly that certain items that reinforce the idea that Israel is a danger to the US are being criminally underreported by ‘the media’, instead of constantly whining about it on a message board read by at most a few thousand people, maybe you should study journalism, become an investigative reporter yourself, and thereby access a broader public. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/102 "2004-05-15T16:15:49Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Lastly, if you feel so strongly that certain items that reinforce the idea that Israel is a danger to the US are being criminally underreported by ‘the media’, instead of constantly whining about it on a message board read by at most a few thousand people, maybe you should study journalism, become an investigative reporter yourself, and thereby access a broader public. He can’t. ZOG won’t let him. In fact, if he tried, his mortgage payments would start to mysteriously disappear, his phone would start making sounds as if it were tapped (that is, it would make _more_ sounds, becuase it’s probably already tapped) and Razor would suddenly find that getting a good haircut would be downright impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/103 "2004-05-17T16:52:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No they would not. The media has refrained from providing the race of either the assailant or the victim in initial stories for years. Yes, you do make a valid point, the media has, in recent years, refrained from reporting on race. There is a very good reason. That is, a good reason when reporting crime and satisfying the politics of political correctness all at the same time. The 2002 FBI crime statistics for interracial crime list 135,369 white on black crimes, while listing 1,140,670 black on white crimes. The media has refrained from reporting on race for the simple reason that if they did, minorities would be named close to 90% of the time and would diametrically oppose the media’s, especially the entertainment media, “through the looking-glass” presentation of reality. > [@](#): > > The _only_ exceptions are those such as the Byrd murder in which the explicit motive was racial hatred. No, that is not the only exception. See, the media has presented church burnings in the South as the work of white racists without any evidence. That event alone has exposed the media to be an agent of an agenda rather than for it’s intended purpose of objectively reporting events. > [@](#): > > Throughout the early part of the 20th century, the media reported the race of a victim or perpetrator _only_ when a person was not white. All they did was drop that practice of reporting race, at all, until race is shown to be germain to the crime. If one has a desperate need to demonize some group because of their race, this is probably a distressing trend. What I find distressing is America’s supposed “free press” enlisting itself as a thought-control apparat. > [@](#): > > I would be interested in seeing any identification of an assailant as “white” in the last month (other than cases where a description is provided for an as yet uncaptured suspect). Can you actually find any examples in the mainstream media? Probably not, for the above named reasons. But, being that the fame of Justice Souter was the reason the assault received mainstream mention, I still contend that had Justice Thomas been attacked by a group of white young men, the media would have made mention of their race for the same purpose that the media used church burnings to create the impression of white racists running rampant persecuting minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/104 "2004-05-17T17:13:57Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Nope, your premise is indeed flawed, and fatally. You take three incidents cherry-picked over the course of more than thirty years to construct an elaborate theory, apparently, that Israel is actually an enemy of its largest benefactor, completely ignoring the many thousands of facts that would tend to negate your premise. Actually, that would be more than necessary. See, if a witness in a court of law has been found to have told a lie, just one lie, that witness’ testimony can be regarded as unreliable. > [@](#): > > Concerning your absurd views of the news media, you seem to somehow expect news outlets to guess what your personal prejudices are and write stories exclusively geared towards confirming them. Journalism doesn’t work that way, and it is perfectly obvious that you know next to nothing about the journalistic process. I know that CNN fabricated a story about America’s military using poison gas on deserters to malign the military establishment. Is that what you are talking about concerning the “journalistic process”, or were you referring to the “church burning” hysteria? > [@](#): > > There’s no such thing as ‘the memory hole’, and you can use that term till you are blue in the face; it will remain meaningless. Anyone who wishes to can find scads of information on on subjects such as the _Liberty_,… Yeah, you can find it, thanks to the internet (Look for future legislation designed to control access to certain info, under the guise of protecting the children.) but, the establishment media is the subject of the discussion. So, “mistaken identity” aside, how often have you heard of the Israeli gunboats machine-gunning the lifeboats that the Liberty lowered into the sea? That alone is a warcrime, even if it had been a ship full of nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/105 "2004-05-17T18:24:16Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > . So, “mistaken identity” aside, how often have you heard of the Israeli gunboats machine-gunning the lifeboats that the Liberty lowered into the sea? That alone is a warcrime, even if it had been a ship full of nazis. The tale is BS. The ones who tell it are a former officer of the Liberty who was incapacitated by his wounds and a sailor whose job description puts him below decks, thus unable to see it. Nothing in the ships log, or by any of the accounts of the officers on deck say anything about lifeboats being shot up as they were put in the water. Some of the boats were shot up before they were put in the water, but that was a different matter entirely. Your memory hole is a paranoia bottom-feeder. You still refuse to concede that your OP was way off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/106 "2004-05-17T21:39:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The 2002 FBI crime statistics for interracial crime list 135,369 white on black crimes, while listing 1,140,670 black on white crimes. The media has refrained from reporting on race for the simple reason that if they did, minorities would be named close to 90% of the time and would diametrically oppose the media’s, especially the entertainment media, “through the looking-glass” presentation of reality. Actually, you could support this “theory” by showing us the numbers from 1963-1965 when the papers changed their policies. If, indeed, the numbers were skewed in the same way at that time, you would at least be able to show that you are not simply inventing your claims. (You will not have proven your conspiracy unless you can provide the notes from editorial meetings where this conspiracy was formed and executed, but you could at least sound plausible.) Of course, if the numbers from that period do not support your contention, you will be left with the fact that you are inventing a conspiracy in 2004 and trying to apply it to a 40-year-old event. On the other hand, the several people I know who actually were in editorial and reporter positions at the time that race was dropped from reports (several of whom are rather hostile to the civil rights movement) never seem to recall this odd belief of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/107 "2004-05-18T04:06:00Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Actually, that would be more than necessary. See, if a witness in a court of law has been found to have told a lie, just one lie, that witness’ testimony can be regarded as unreliable. In that case, I hope you’ll enjoy your stay in Unreliabletown, becuase your ticket was paid for quite some time ago. > [@](#): > > (Look for future legislation designed to control access to certain info, under the guise of protecting the children.) You don’t have any evidence _now_. Why should we wait? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/108 "2004-05-18T05:55:38Z")
> [@](#): > > **pravnik** : The “fuel source” is likely something conventional like lantern fuel if identified as such by a Tennesse county sherriff. I don’t think they’d recognize U-235. While we are fighting the ignorance of Razorsharp’s xenophobic response to the news article, would you mind not perpetuating yet another stereotype for the gullible to react to? Don’t forget that East Tennessee has been a major producer of U-235. It is the home of Oakridge and folks in that area may know more than you give them credit for. This incident happened closer to the N.C. border, but Tennesseans in that part of the state are aware of their vulnerability. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/109 "2004-05-18T12:17:38Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > The tale is BS. The ones who tell it are a former officer of the Liberty who was incapacitated by his wounds and a sailor whose job description puts him below decks, thus unable to see it. Nothing in the ships log, or by any of the accounts of the officers on deck say anything about lifeboats being shot up as they were put in the water. > > Some of the boats were shot up before they were put in the water, but that was a different matter entirely. > > Your memory hole is a paranoia bottom-feeder. You still refuse to concede that your OP was way off the mark. And this you know because you were there? > [@](#): > > Betrayal behind Israeli attack on U.S. ship > By Adm. Thomas Moorer – Houston Chronicle January 9, 2004 > > After State Department officials and historians assembled in Washington, D.C., last week to discuss the 1967 war in the Middle East, I am compelled to speak out about one of U.S. history’s most shocking cover-ups. > > On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship the USS Liberty killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172. Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own government. [http://groups.msn.com/SAILORSUNITEDFORSELFDEFENSE/betrayaloftheussliberty.msnw](http://groups.msn.com/SAILORSUNITEDFORSELFDEFENSE/betrayaloftheussliberty.msnw) ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/110 "2004-05-18T12:43:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the other hand, the several people I know who actually were in editorial and reporter positions at the time that race was dropped from reports (several of whom are rather hostile to the civil rights movement) never seem to recall this odd belief of yours. Well, don’t leave me hangin’ on the edge of my seat. Please enlighten me on the reason that your circle of friends attribute to the change in policy. Whites outraged because they were being named so often? No? Well, something along the lines of an ink shortage? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/111 "2004-05-18T12:45:15Z")
The USS Liberty horse has been dead for many years and requires no further beating. Ten official US investigations and three Israeli investigations have shown the attack to be nothing more than a case of mistaken identity. [Here](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html) is a listing of the pertinent investigations, you of course may wish to reach investigation if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/112 "2004-05-18T12:47:23Z")
I meant to say you may of course research each of these investigations if you wish. I, in turn, must research the use or the preview feature. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/113 "2004-05-18T12:50:57Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > And this you know because you were there? I know this because there was no mention of it in any of the logs, formal or informal, none of the testimony by any of the crew mentioned it, then all of a sudden some sailors ‘remember’ this part of the tale over 14 years later. Your article by Moorer is nothing but an opinion piece. Moorer had the position to find the ‘truth’ of the Liberty matter and instead produced nothing but opinion pieces. Moorer was also one of the voices behind the ‘missle vs. TWA800’ bit of nonsense. The guy was fond of padding his record too. That’s enough on that subject. Tell us **Razorsharp** where are your deadly ninja terrorist Mossad agents with their deadly varnish remover and flight pamphlets? You’ve been awfully silent on this aspect of your complaint. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/114 "2004-05-18T13:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, don’t leave me hangin’ on the edge of my seat. Please enlighten me on the reason that your circle of friends attribute to the change in policy. I take it that this means your investigation into the crime statistics 40 years ago does not support your “theory”? The reason was very simply that they recognized that including a mention of race in every article (not just crime stories) served no purpose except to highlight the divisions within society. (Which provides another bit of evidence against your odd conspiracy beliefs: race is not merely excluded from crime stories, it is excluded from _every_ story in which race is irrelevant. It _is_ a good way to save ink and column space, of course.) The same thing actually happened decades earlier within the white community: the papers stopped refering to people as “Irish” or “Polish” or “Italian” because the ethnicity of the participants rarely had anything to do with the stories. > [@](#): > > Whites outraged because they were being named so often? Obviously not, since the default (once they stopped identifying people as Hungarian or Swedish) was to not mention race for whites and to note it for non-whites. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/115 "2004-05-18T13:42:27Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > At the same time, **Razor** and **Alky** apparently think the flight training brochure is significant, indicating that maybe the guys were going take flying lessons and eventually to dive a plane into some target or other. Well, which is it? Truck bomb or airplane bomb? Or, wait for it, they were gonna build a fertilizer bomb, transport it to a plane, then crash the plane into something, right? Well, where’s the fertilizer, aside from the OP, of course? This would be a lot easier if you all would just pay attention. Knowing the Jews control all airborne package delivery companies, they are obviously going to load a truck bomb inside a cargo plane. Since all the air traffic controllers are in the employ of the Zionist Occupation Government, they’ll have clear sailing to their target…a strike at the heart of America…the Jack Daniels distillery. I don’t know about you, but the thought of 20,000 likkered-up rednecks at a Skynyrd concert screaming “Free Bird!” while clutching a Mogen-David bottle sends chills up my spine. What it all boils down to…them Jews is smart. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/116 "2004-05-18T15:39:36Z")
> [@Mr. Miskatonic](#): > > The tale is BS. The ones who tell it are a former officer of the Liberty who was incapacitated by his wounds and a sailor whose job description puts him below decks, thus unable to see it. Nothing in the ships log, or by any of the accounts of the officers on deck say anything about lifeboats being shot up as they were put in the water. So, I guess we attribute their claims to anti-semitism? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/117 "2004-05-18T15:58:44Z")
> [@](#): > > So, I guess we attribute their claims to anti-semitism? mmm? Why? You are the one who needs to couch every act in terms of a massive conspiracy. Those two gentlemen could have any number of reasons for their adherence to a particular story. They could suffer from a false memory planted during the trauma of the event that they cannot shake. They may have hyped their claims at the time and are embarrassed to back down from them, now. They could be deliberately hyping their accounts due to a (quite understandable) anger at the Israeli (not Jewish) government. Or there may be another explanation. It is enough to note that their version of a particular incident is not corroborated by their fellow sailors to recognize that their claim is in _error_ without going further to accuse them of bad intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/118 "2004-05-18T16:20:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I take it that this means your investigation into the crime statistics 40 years ago does not support your “theory”? I don’t know where you are coming up with the idea that the practice of reporting the race of criminals ended in the mid sixties. It may have began in the mid sixties, I believe it ended more recently. But, who knows, time flies. I won’t argue that point. However, I will agree that the reporting of the race of criminals did have a divisive effect, just the same as it would if the race of criminals were reported today. It would contradict the liberal orthodoxy’s fantasy of diversity as the beautiful mosaic that is America’s greatest strength. As for the crime stats for 40 yrs ago, you brought it up, if you have them available, please use them to refute my “theory”. Don’t demand that I go in search of statistics that you want to use. But, being that we are in the here and now, just use this era’s statistics. Oh, that’s right. Today’s stats don’t support the “through the looking glass” fantasy, but they so support my “theory”. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/119 "2004-05-18T16:26:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Those two gentlemen could have any number of reasons for their adherence to a particular story. They could suffer from a false memory planted during the trauma of the event that they cannot shake. They may have hyped their claims at the time and are embarrassed to back down from them, now. They could be deliberately hyping their accounts due to a (quite understandable) anger at the Israeli (not Jewish) government. Or there may be another explanation. Hey, I’ve got another explaination. The Israelis did machine-gun the lifeboats, just like they claim to have witnessed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644/120 "2004-05-18T17:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, I’ve got another explaination. The Israelis did machine-gun the lifeboats, just like they claim to have witnessed. It does not surprise me that you will accept the word of two men against that of 147 other men (none of whom have reason to lie or to feel kindly toward Israel) when the two men say something that supports your hatreds. But then, that is exactly the sort of tin-hat thinking that most of us have opposed, here. > [@](#): > > I don’t know where you are coming up with the idea that the practice of reporting the race of criminals ended in the mid sixties. It may have began in the mid sixties, I believe it ended more recently. But, who knows, time flies. I won’t argue that point. The practice of reporting the race of _people_ in any context when race was not germain to the story ended inthe 1960s. If you are unaware of that, perhaps you are simply making up the rest of your “theories” without data, as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-one-for-the-memory-hole/244644.md?page=7)