# Another perspective on "nice guys" and the women who won't date them **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457 "2009-05-14T21:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/181 "2009-05-20T05:38:41Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Even though this thread is about guys being rejected and wanting to know the reasons, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of women out there who are being rejected and want to know the reasons. > > So, I wonder if it makes sense to have some sort of dating website where the participants agree that, if after a few dates they no longer want to continue to see each other, they go back to the website and both fill in a simple feedback form. If you don’t fill in the feedback form, you don’t get “points”, and the website limits your options (basically, there has to be some incentive for people to fill out the feedback form) > > This way, both men and women, after going on many unsuccessful dates will hopefully start seeing a pattern and can decide on whether they want to change their ways. > > Of course, even in an online feedback form, people may not be willing to be as truthful, but it may be easier to give this feedback online rather than in person. > > Does the idea make any sense, or would it never work? Do any dating websites have anything resembling this? I don’t know whether dating websites have this service, but (like you say,) I imagine that it could backfire pretty easily. Using my own previous example, the real reason that I didn’t go out again with the last guy I gave a chance? I found him physically unappealing, not very bright, and boring. I don’t think I could tell someone that, face-to-face or not. What I told him was (to paraphrase): “I just don’t think we have very much in common, and this isn’t going to work.” Even in an on-line survey, I think I’d feel the need to be equally tactful. (Until he continued acting like a stalker for a good month or so, and finally showed up to confront me at my regular weekly social event… Then I might be painfully, tactlessly honest.) On the other hand, some people would likely go out of their way to be hurtful in such a post-date survey. Didn’t get past a handshake and coffee? “You’re an ugly cow.” No oral sex? “I wouldn’t ‘f’ you with my worst enemy’s johnson.” It seems to me that there are an awful lot of ways that a follow-up survey could go horribly, hurtfully wrong. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/182 "2009-05-20T12:34:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > So, Matt, does the world implode in a sort of passive aggressive black hole when two “nice guys” start dating? Yes. Yes it does. _gulp_ ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/183 "2009-05-20T12:52:06Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > The female version of the “nice guy” - you ask her out for a Friday night. She starts referring to you as “her boyfriend” before the date occurs. The date is pleasant enough - although she spends too much time talking about how great you are, how she never gets to date good looking guys like you, and how thrilled she is that you have a good job. She is willing to bet that your mother is sweet and can’t wait to meet her. But this is all just slightly uncomfortable, and balanced by her being good looking, fairly intellegent, and nice. She makes some reference to her sister’s wedding in six weeks that infers you will be her date, but the reference is subtle enough that you can’t really call her on it. She is attractive, and there is chemistry, and maybe even sex (she is willing and good looking). The next day you don’t call her - and you don’t call her Sunday either. But she calls you at work on Monday (you didn’t give her your work phone number, but you told her where you work) with 'hey, I haven’t heard from you, do you want to go for a bike ride this evening." You mention you will be out, and tomorrow doesn’t work for you either because you need to get all this laundry done. You show up Monday evening to find your roommate has let her in to your apartment and she is folding your jockey shorts for you. Now you’ll have tomorrow evening free to go to a movie! Can she cook? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/184 "2009-05-20T14:31:00Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, I wonder if it makes sense to have some sort of dating website where the participants agree that, if after a few dates they no longer want to continue to see each other, they go back to the website and both fill in a simple feedback form. If you don’t fill in the feedback form, you don’t get “points”, and the website limits your options (basically, there has to be some incentive for people to fill out the feedback form) > > This way, both men and women, after going on many unsuccessful dates will hopefully start seeing a pattern and can decide on whether they want to change their ways. > > Of course, even in an online feedback form, people may not be willing to be as truthful, but it may be easier to give this feedback online rather than in person. > > Does the idea make any sense, or would it never work? Do any dating websites have anything resembling this? First of all you are assuming “unsuccessful dates” mean that there is something wrong with the person. I generally assume unsuccessful dates are the rule, not the exception, until you find someone you actually want to have a relationship with. Second, no one would ever date on your site because eventually every woman would be a “psycho bitch” who “doesn’t put out” and “smells like cat litter” and every man would “have a small penis” and be a “cheap bastard” or a “closet homosexual”. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/185 "2009-05-20T14:45:27Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, I wonder if it makes sense to have some sort of dating website where the participants agree that, if after a few dates they no longer want to continue to see each other, they go back to the website and both fill in a simple feedback form. This is actually what high-end dating and matchmaking services do, pretty much. In addition to going out with clients themselves for dinner (to observe them and find out what type of person they claim to be) they get feedback form the first few people they date (to find out what kind of person they really are). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/186 "2009-05-20T15:22:02Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Can she cook? Oh yes, she can cook. And brings her toothbrush and takes over a drawer on date #2. And if you keep having sex with her and the ring doesn’t arrive, the risk of her birth control failing goes way up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/187 "2009-05-20T15:55:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Oh yes, she can cook. And brings her toothbrush and takes over a drawer on date #2. > > And if you keep having sex with her and the ring doesn’t arrive, the risk of her birth control failing goes way up. You’re certainly giving Stephen King a run for his money here… ::tries to keep knees from knocking together in abject terror, and fails:: I find these ‘nice guy’ threads to be quite the illumination into a part of the psyche of both (well, two, don’t want to be exclusionary) genders, and quite the reminder of the way I used to think. I wonder whether there isn’t just a mental self-image by some people that romantic love is nigh-unto-impossible for them and this attitude causes them to obsess over it and make it an even tougher road to hoe to ‘find someone’ due to desperation being about as attractive as a midden heap at midsummer. You don’t need someone to complete you. You can’t always get what you want. When you know that… I don’t know… having been in the nice-guy spot myself it’s definitely preferable (in many ways, geddit?) on this side. The grass is certainly greener! ---
**Author:** ![RedRosesForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RedRosesForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedRosesForMe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/188 "2009-05-20T16:32:59Z")
Another perspectve: nice guys sometimes are too nice, and not in a creepy way. This generally occurs when the guy has managed to successfully navigate the dates without being creepy, or when a woman dates someone she’s known for a while, only to find out the guy’s a doormat. I’ve never been in this situation, but I’ve seen it happen with my friends. Longtime friends give dating a shot. Things go well, but the girl starts to get annoyed that the guy seems to live to serve. She casually mentions that she’s hungry. With no comment, the guy gets up and makes her a sandwich. That’s an actual example from my best friend and another friend’s relationship. She finally broke it off because it was so off-putting to date a guy who sat around waiting for an opportunity to wait on her hand and foot. You got the impression that she could order him around at will, and that’s not an attractive trait in a mate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/189 "2009-05-20T16:40:52Z")
> [@RedRosesForMe](#): > > You got the impression that she could order him around at will, and that’s not an attractive trait in a mate. I beg to differ! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/190 "2009-05-20T17:13:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And if you keep having sex with her and the ring doesn’t arrive, the risk of her birth control failing goes way up. Not the way _we’ll_ be doing it! Heh heh! Am I right, guys? High-five! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/191 "2009-05-20T17:26:55Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Not the way _we’ll_ be doing it! Heh heh! Am I right, guys? High-five! [Married With Children audience] Woooooooooo! [/MWC audience] ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/192 "2009-05-20T17:56:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Second, no one would ever date on your site because eventually every woman would be a “psycho bitch” who “doesn’t put out” and “smells like cat litter” and every man would “have a small penis” and be a “cheap bastard” or a “closet homosexual”. Truth in advertising never works. Hell truth in society in never works… ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/193 "2009-05-20T21:01:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > First of all you are assuming “unsuccessful dates” mean that there is something wrong with the person. I generally assume unsuccessful dates are the rule, not the exception, until you find someone you actually want to have a relationship with. We are talking about people who go many years without finding a mate, despite going on many first dates. I assume these people would like to get some sort of feedback about what is not going well for them. > [@](#): > > Second, no one would ever date on your site because eventually every woman would be a “psycho bitch” who “doesn’t put out” and “smells like cat litter” and every man would “have a small penis” and be a “cheap bastard” or a “closet homosexual”. I agree that there are (possibly insurmountable) problems with the idea. However, with some tweaking, it could work. For example, the feedback could be just multiple-choice, and have a small number of categories. e.g. "Why didn’t you want to go out on date with him/her again: Check the top three reasons: - Looks unappealing - Character unappealing - Financial security (or lack thereof) - Lack of common interests - Religion (too religious/not religious enough/wrong religion) - Politics - Mismatch in future plans (wanting kids or not, wanting marriage or not, moving to different town soon, etc) Some of the above categories might have sub-categories. If one uses this service and gets responses that span all categories (i.e. different people point to different categories as the reason), then there is nothing wrong with them, they just need to find the right person for them. But, if most of the responses are focused on one or two categories (e.g. looks or financial security), they can try to do something about it (like lose some weight, work out, get a good haircut, get a stable job, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/194 "2009-05-21T12:01:58Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > We are talking about people who go many years without finding a mate, despite going on many first dates. I assume these people would like to get some sort of feedback about what is not going well for them. Are we? IME, there are a lot of guys who don’t go on a lot of dates - the obsess about a particular woman for a long period of time making themselves unavailable to any other opportunity, then when she doesn’t work out for them, wonder what is wrong with them. I agree that someone who goes out with 100 women over two years and seldom gets to the second date, and hasn’t gotten to a third date, probably needs a dating coach. But there are people who do that - and you are probably going to get better results from an objective professional. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/195 "2009-05-21T14:56:57Z")
Today’s Headline: [**Nice Guy Finishes First**](http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/homepage/hp5-20-09vv.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/196 "2009-05-21T16:25:44Z")
[I’m going to quote something Diogenes the Cynic posted in another thread. I think it’s an interesting point.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11163300&postcount=22) > [@I done broke up with the boyfriend!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-done-broke-up-with-the-boyfriend/497123/22): > > Dr. Drew always says that women who have been through the ringer with guys need to pay a little more attention the guys who strike them as boring. What seems boring to them is just unfamiliar normality. The guys that seem exciting are the ones you have to be cautious about. Drew says some women get their radars screwed up that way and find themselves attracted to egoists and assholes over and over again, and they overlook some more healthy guys because they seem less intriguing at first. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/197 "2009-05-21T17:22:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [I’m going to quote something Diogenes the Cynic posted in another thread. I think it’s an interesting point.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11163300&postcount=22) Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? I ask because it doesn’t bug me at all that someone with bad judgment wouldn’t want to date me. On the contrary, I find good judgment to be quite attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/198 "2009-05-21T17:30:42Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? I ask because it doesn’t bug me at all that someone with bad judgment wouldn’t want to date me. On the contrary, I find good judgment to be quite attractive. How do you know it’s the ones with _bad_ judgment that don’t want to date you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/199 "2009-05-21T17:36:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How do you know it’s the ones with _bad_ judgment that don’t want to date you? 😃 There are some guys with very good judgment who also won’t date me. . . 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/200 "2009-05-21T18:01:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [I’m going to quote something Diogenes the Cynic posted in another thread. I think it’s an interesting point.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11163300&postcount=22) > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > Dr. Drew always says that women who have been through the ringer with guys need to pay a little more attention the guys who strike them as boring. What seems boring to them is just unfamiliar normality. The guys that seem exciting are the ones you have to be cautious about. Drew says some women get their radars screwed up that way and find themselves attracted to egoists and assholes over and over again, and they overlook some more healthy guys because they seem less intriguing at first. [/QUOTE] Basically that’s telling women to go against what they are by nature sexually attracted to and go with what makes more practical sense. Which is not that easy. I think “boring” men can take advantage of the evolved female response by noting [the following](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/376321.stm) > [@](#): > > Women are attracted to more masculine-looking men at the most fertile time of their menstrual cycle, psychologists have shown. > > During the less fertile times, they choose men with more feminine-looking faces. These are seen as kinder and more co-operative, but less strong and healthy genetically. So, if you are a non masculine-looking man, who is kind and co-operative, but less strong and healthy genetically, just approach women during their less fertile times in the menstrual cycle 🙂 Someone would make a killing in the market if they developed a gadget that could detect whether a woman standing next to you is in the fertile time of her menstrual cycle or not.😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=11)