# Another perspective on "nice guys" and the women who won't date them **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457 "2009-05-14T21:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/101 "2009-05-16T00:51:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [Here ya go.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11145141#post11145141) [Official Moderator Warning]Here _you_ go-you know damn well this is inappropriate for this forum.[/Official Moderator Warning] ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/102 "2009-05-16T01:43:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Official Moderator Warning]I think irony is _you_ getting an official warning about your behavior while complaining about the postings of others in IMHO. If you have trouble with either pushing the “Report this post to the Moderator” button or keeping your attacks in The BBQ Pit, perhaps you should refrain from posting in this forum.[/Official Moderator Warning] Oh please. She told me to Shut the Fuck up. I think the use of the word irony to describe her post was understated, if anything. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/103 "2009-05-16T01:46:02Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Oh please. She told me to Shut the Fuck up. I think the use of the word irony to describe her post was understated, if anything. If your version of The Straight Dope Message Board doesn’t come with the “Report post” button, I will retract the official warning. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/104 "2009-05-16T01:46:56Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Its possible she isn’t fixated at all - and just using this little twitch to illustrate the thought process of a woman deciding how many dates to stick it out for. Will this get worse? Better? Become a quirk she can live with given his other good qualities? Something that in a date or two she can bring up and he’ll stop? Cause her to go crazy bitch and scream “back the fuck off” one evening? Why would you “stick it out” for any dates? If you don’t like the guy, you don’t like him. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/105 "2009-05-16T01:48:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If your version of The Straight Dope Message Board doesn’t come with the “Report post” button, I will retract the official warning. I was unaware that threadshitting was something that warranted a “report”. I see accusations of it enough on these boards that it didn’t seem necessary. I have no problem with the warning. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/106 "2009-05-16T03:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I was unaware that threadshitting was something that warranted a “report”. I see accusations of it enough on these boards that it didn’t seem necessary. Depends on the degree of threadshittery in my opinion. If anyone is accusing someone else of threadshitting and not reporting it, it sounds like they’re just using it as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/107 "2009-05-16T04:34:25Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > I was unaware that threadshitting was something that warranted a “report”. I see accusations of it enough on these boards that it didn’t seem necessary. > > I have no problem with the warning. You said she told you to STFU. If she did that, then you should have reported the post. I don’t see where she said that, though. ISTM that your first post in this thread was: > [@Labrador Deceiver](#): > > [Why the hell is it so difficult for you to stop acting like a child? How many different people are going to have to tell you you’re being an asshole before you stop thread shitting and go somewhere else?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11145046&postcount=75) I’d call that coming out, guns blazing. But this is a hijack. Back to your regularly scheduled boring gender war argument du jour. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/108 "2009-05-16T05:30:53Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > You said she told you to STFU. If she did that, then you should have reported the post. I don’t see where she said that, though. ISTM that your first post in this thread was: > > I’d call that coming out, guns blazing. But this is a hijack. Back to your regularly scheduled boring gender war argument du jour. The hijack is officially over-either continue the topic raised by the OP, _civilly_, or go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/109 "2009-05-16T13:32:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why would you “stick it out” for any dates? If you don’t like the guy, you don’t like him. She does appear to like the guy > [@](#): > > The thing is, the guy is intelligent and physically attractive and we have things we can talk about. This is why I’m still seeing him (we have plans for tonight…and yes he sent a reminder about it). I think chemistry is not an impossibility. I really really want to like this guy and see things through. But he’s doing things that are not lighting my fire and in fact, are doing the opposite. She doesn’t like some of the guys attributes - he seems a little pushy. She likes others, he seems intelligent. Pushy might be temporary, it might be something she can say ‘I don’t want you to treat me like I’m supposed to make it to a dental appointment’ and it stops. Here is a strange thing about some women. We might decide in 30 seconds whether or not you are datable material. But we take a lot longer to decide if you are worth keeping around long term. And most of us won’t kick you out of bed the first time you eat crackers - we will first wonder if its an aberration. If not, we will do that wonderful thing women do where we try and “fix” it. If that doesn’t work, we then decide if its a quirk we can live with or not. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/110 "2009-05-16T14:56:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I find it interesting that you spent so much time fixating on his communication style and not how the dates went. It’s funny that you think you can tell from a single post what I’m actually fixated on, as if what I wrote was supposed to be a comprehensive outline of relevant and unrelevant details. For all you know, I might be fixated on how good he could be in bed. But sex is not the topic of this thread, so why would I be talking about that? > [@](#): > > The way I see it, if you like someone, you look forward to their calls and messages. If not, it’s like an annoying coworker asking for a TPS report. It seems to me that if you have to talk yourself into liking the guy, you probably don’t. There doesn’t have to be a reason. You may be right. I usually subscribe to the “go with your heart” theory when it comes to relationships, but this time I’m trying to do something different. Surely you understand this since you wrote the OP criticising women for not dating “nice guys” well up into middle age. I’m trying to give the guy a chance to interest me. We went out last night. Decent conversation, but he’s not a humor-filled person so I never get to laugh around him. It’s the 3rd date and I’m not feeling especially affectionate toward him. Chemistry still undetectable. It was an okay date, and that was all. Now I wonder. If he hadn’t sent out those insecure pushy signs in the early stages, would my perceptions of him be different? Would what I perceive to be as boring now come off as intrigue? There’s really no way of knowing. But it’s an interesting question that has made me reconsider some ideas about attraction that I used to have. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/111 "2009-05-16T15:33:12Z")
God forbid a fifty-year old woman decides she’d rather be single than date a guy just because he showed some interest. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/112 "2009-05-16T15:53:00Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > Come on, you’re notorious around here for your misogynism- it’s not just this thread. Don’t pretend you don’t know. Although I’ve seen the o.p. be brutally frank, arrogant, and even obnoxious at times, I frankly can’t recall him writing anything that could be categorized as misogynistic. Indeed, his harshest words seem to be reserved for other men who don’t meet his standard of alpha-ness (and are in my opinion are generally as on point as they are blunt). Perhaps you can enlighten me with a link or two that demonstrates your assertion of misogyny? > [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > No. Some people like a little “danger” in the courting process. We like those endorphin rushes and heart flips, when sometimes you wonder if he really likes you, or those _is he going to call!!_ moments. We know that if we do eventually settle down with this person, it’ll become mundane and safe, but just for that little while of dating, we like a little chase. Boring is… well, boring. Sounds perfectly human, to me. > [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > Not physical danger, of course. I just mean “the chase”, the little scary thrill that comes from not knowing if you’re going to be able to close the deal, or not, for a little while. When someone throws themselves at you and claims to _really, really like you!!_ on the first or second date, it’s a turnoff. It’s disingenuous, creepy, and unattractive. So, basically, what you are saying is that you want the sort of behavior at the beginning of a relationship that you will complain about later on: (“You never call me! I can’t rely upon you! You don’t talk about what you’re thinking!”) I don’t mean so much to criticize as to comprehend; this is actually something of a revelation to me. I always assumed that the common courtesy to communicate plans, confirm dates, et cetera, just as I would with friends or business associates, and in that vein when setting up a date I make certain that there is an explicit understanding of where and when, I follow up with an e-mail or phone call as a quick confirmation or reminder if it is more than three days prior to the engagement in question, and generally end a date by affirming whether or not I had a good time and would like to repeat, and when I would be next available. But you’re saying that this is “a turnoff”, and “disingenuous, creepy, and unattractive.” By your statements, I would be better off following the advice from the pickup artist (PUA) community to be a bit of a jerk, don’t let the woman know when I’m available, don’t give feedback, don’t return phone calls in a timely fashion, et cetera, so as to manipulate the woman into being more interested. Wait, who’s the misogynist? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/113 "2009-05-16T16:34:56Z")
**Stranger** - no, I’m not going to go digging into **ms. smith’s** posting history looking for specifics, but there’s a reason that I, and others, think “woman hater” when I see his name. As for the rest, are you being purposefully dense? I’m about the 6th woman that’s come in here to say this, but let me rephrase it. When, on the first, second, or third date- anywhere in the first two months, really, a man starts telling me how great I am, how much he likes me, and what our future holds, it’s creepy. It sounds very insincere- how do you know you like me that much when you haven’t even gotten to know me? Where’s that stage of getting to know one another and\* then\* deciding if you like each other? A lot of men seem to want to skip the courting stage and go right to the long-term-relationship stage, including moving in together, before I’ve even made up my mind as to whether I even like them or not. I feel cheated when that happens- I want my courting, dammit! If you’re ready to skip the courting and go right to emotional and physical intimacy, that’s creepy to me. When you assume to know me and you don’t, that’s creepy. When you assume a level of relationship with me that we haven’t reached yet, that’s creepy. All warning signs, and every time I’ve experienced them, it ends badly. Every time. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/114 "2009-05-16T17:08:21Z")
Okay, decided to skip a lot of the thread-based angryness here… I’d read the OP and a few of the responses a couple days ago, and it got me thinking about the language involved in nice-guy-ism. It was this message board that allowed me to decode the term; that it means a certain lack-of-decisiveness, or more appropriately lack-of-agressiveness. So, I was thinking of my own past experiences with being the ‘nice guy’, and wondered, wouldn’t it be easier to say, “Hey, you need to be more decisive / agressive.”? I mean, when told I was a nice guy, I spent time wondering what was wrong with being nice. If, perhaps, I’d been told the actual trait that was missing, I either could’ve done something about it, or at least not blamed myself for being what I assumed people wanted (aka ‘nice’). What I’m getting at here is, would it be too much to simply say what one wants when it comes to aggressiveness / passiveness? If anything, it comes across as passive -not- to say it. Saying it also makes people like me able to realize just what -is- wrong, and, perhaps, what we can do to correct it. I never knew what was wrong with being ‘nice’. I’d love to see others in the same boat realize that it has very little to do with actually being nice; that it’s a euphamism for something else completely. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/115 "2009-05-16T17:11:01Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > " By your statements, I would be better off following the advice from the pickup artist (PUA) community to be a bit of a jerk, don’t let the woman know when I’m available, don’t give feedback, don’t return phone calls in a timely fashion, et cetera, so as to manipulate the woman into being more interested. > Stranger I knew a guy who did that. Very nice guy, but he figured out what worked on his own by being “not nice”. Say what you will, but he was beating women off with a stick. And he wasnt a looker, rich, famous, powerful, or otherwise macho in any real way either. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/116 "2009-05-16T18:27:04Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > **Stranger** - no, I’m not going to go digging into **ms. smith’s** posting history looking for specifics, but there’s a reason that I, and others, think “woman hater” when I see his name. But you can’t or won’t explain the reason for this intense opinion? Curious. Here, let me do some digging for you. Gee, whiz, a single search for “msmith women” comes up with a whole host of promising threads, and there’s even [thread=318085]one dedicated to **Pit** ing the poster in question[/thread]…only he comes off less like a misogynist and more like a self-professed arrogant guy with a slightly jerkish sense of humor, while the originator of that thread seems to be on a one-woman crusade to vent whatever issues she is dragging along. Frankly, **msmith537** sounds like your kind of guy, except he wouldn’t change after you are done with the chase bit. > [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > As for the rest, are you being purposefully dense? I’m about the 6th woman that’s come in here to say this, but let me rephrase it. When, on the first, second, or third date- anywhere in the first two months, really, a man starts telling me how great I am, how much he likes me, and what our future holds, it’s creepy. It sounds very insincere- how do you know you like me that much when you haven’t even gotten to know me? Where’s that stage of getting to know one another and\* then\* deciding if you like each other? A lot of men seem to want to skip the courting stage and go right to the long-term-relationship stage, including moving in together, before I’ve even made up my mind as to whether I even like them or not. I feel cheated when that happens- I want my courting, dammit! Your words here say one thing–and of course someone who brings flowers and chocolate to a first date, or starts talking about moving in together or marriage after a couple of weeks is bringing some seriously questionable expactations to the table–but your previous description of what you want says something very different. You appear to be expecting the guy to be cagey, uncommunicative, and distant at the beginning of a possible relationship, but then flip at some arbitrary point and then become the mature, responsible, respectful fella you actually want to spend some time with. Only it doesn’t work that way; if anything, a man is going to be more circumspect and respectful during initial dating, and then later fall into slothfulness. Now perhaps you are unlike the female friends I have who are dating; perhaps you don’t get all excited about the new bloke who doesn’t call or tell you what he’s thinking, and then two months down the road complain that he never calls and doesn’t say what he’s thinking. Maybe you sit down with the guy you’ve been dating and say something like, “All this cat-&-mouse game is fun, but now we need to start acting like adults and communicate plans and feelings, et cetera.” But for your words you come off like a 15 year old girl who can’t see beyond next weekend and who gets pissed off at This Week’s Boy who wronged her by looking sideways at the cheerleading squad. > [@billfish678](#): > > I knew a guy who did that. Very nice guy, but he figured out what worked on his own by being “not nice”. > > Say what you will, but he was beating women off with a stick. And he wasnt a looker, rich, famous, powerful, or otherwise macho in any real way either. Oh, no question; I’ve tried the same thing myself, with some measure of success. However, the women who respond to this sort of thing come with the same type of baggage and low self-esteem issues that make these techniques work. They’re not really good long-term interests, and frankly most aren’t even that interested to talk to. “Cocky & Funny”, or whatever the current buzzword is in the PUA community will get you so far, but then it hits a wall when dealing with a woman who finds perpetual inanity (and especially the kind of mechanistic behavior that is “trained” by pickup artists) indicative of a lack of maturity. Robin Williams is a funny guy (well, he used to be) but I don’t think I’d spend a half an hour in a room with him without wanting to punch him in the face. Getting back to the o.p., it is curious that in a dating thread a few weeks ago, men were being advised by all quarters to lower their standards with online dating to include women who clearly have some baggage or issues, or else just suck it up and be along. And yet, when the complementary situation occurs, the reaction is vigorous; if a guy is “too available”, regardless of what other qualities he has, he should be tossed back in favor of a bigger fish. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/117 "2009-05-16T18:28:04Z")
As long as the stick is smaller than the thickness of his thumb… ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/118 "2009-05-16T18:38:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > But you can’t or won’t explain the reason for this intense opinion? Curious. Here, let me do some digging for you. Gee, whiz, a single search for “msmith women” comes up with a whole host of promising threads, and there’s even [thread=318085]one dedicated to **Pit** ing the poster in question[/thread]…only he comes off less like a misogynist and more like a self-professed arrogant guy with a slightly jerkish sense of humor, while the originator of that thread seems to be on a one-woman crusade to vent whatever issues she is dragging along. Frankly, **msmith537** sounds like your kind of guy, except he wouldn’t change after you are done with the chase bit. Perhaps she is unwilling to go against the two warnings that were issued (posts #100 and #108 in case you missed them) to play your cute little game with you? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/119 "2009-05-16T18:42:40Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Perhaps she is unwilling to go against the two warnings that were issued (posts #100 and #108 in case you missed them) to play your cute little game with you? So it’s okay to call him a “woman hater” but not to back up the opinion with anything resembling evidence? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/120 "2009-05-16T18:44:46Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > So it’s okay to call him a “woman hater” but not to back up the opinion with anything resembling evidence? > > Stranger Not once a very specific warning has been issued to stay on the topic of the OP. Pretty obvious, really. Butterflies [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=7)