# Another perspective on "nice guys" and the women who won't date them **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457 "2009-05-14T21:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/161 "2009-05-19T04:29:32Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > You cannot be serious. Oh my Lord, I am laughing out loud as I type this. Daisy of Fucking Love? > > Have you ever watched Rock of Love, where an old man in eye-liner limits himself to a group of sociopaths in clear heels, and wonders why he’s still searching for The One? > > It’s a frickin’ reality show. **And moreover, some people (regardless of gender) are too mucked up about the brain in order to realize their unhealthy behaviors and priorities are what’s getting in the way.** What the hell does Daisy of Love have to do with anything? That is exactly my point. I mean they get those people from somewhere. You don’t think there are real life girls who are only interested in guys in a band? Or guys with money? Or meathead player types? There is, in fact, something “mucked up” in their brain that makes them think that certain superficial qualities are the most important thing about those people. They meet a nice, normal, regular job working guy and it’s just boring. “Yeah, he’s a great guy, but…blah blah blah.” And guys do the same thing too. > [@Bruce Wayne](#): > > Providing both parties are crazy about each other, rushing madly ahead sounds great. When one party is crazy about the other while the other party is still in the “getting to know you phase”, it gets creepy and uncomfortible. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/162 "2009-05-19T04:35:37Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > Like they don’t understand that a good realtionship starts out as friendship and then evolves from there. I think that may be specific to you. Nearly any romantic relationship I ever had started out as a romantic relationship. Maybe some people eventually form a romance with the girl they were best friends with since 3rd grade. But in my observation, familiarity tends to kill romance. They become “one of the guys” or the “best friend”. But every relationship is different so I don’t think you can generalize. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/163 "2009-05-19T06:32:39Z")
For the love of God, can we tone down the “men are like”/“women are like” business? I’ve said this a million times and it’s apparently still worth saying: _if it all had to do with how much trouble women and men have with understanding one another because they’re so damn different, gays and lesbians would never have any trouble dating, and we fucking do._ ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/164 "2009-05-19T08:28:24Z")
[Fundie hat] Obviously gays and lesbians are an abomonation. Otherwise, they’d have no trouble understanding men/women and would have no trouble dating. [/Fundie hat] I should get my own late night TV show… Maybe on the Food network. They need filler, and homophobes gotta eat. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/165 "2009-05-19T09:06:15Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > For the love of God, can we tone down the “men are like”/“women are like” business? > > I’ve said this a million times and it’s apparently still worth saying: _if it all had to do with how much trouble women and men have with understanding one another because they’re so damn different, gays and lesbians would never have any trouble dating, and we fucking do._ But Matt! Do you realize how much money do those books bring in? Why do you hate the editorial business? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/166 "2009-05-19T11:00:42Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > What has been everyone’s experience when the two of you DO rush on madly ahead, a mutual “coming on too strong”, forgoing all the usual niceities and protocols, getting “too mushy/clingy/etc. too soon,” as **Incubus** put it? Because what I am hearing is attempting to go that route too soon will scare the other person off-but what if they aren’t scared off but return it in kind? What have been your experiences when all holds are unbarred? Yeah I married the guy. It did eventually end in divorce, but it lasted eight years and I don’t blame the beginning for how it turned out in the end. I think this is a key point in the advice not to come on too strong though: If your feelings are disproportionately strong compared to the other person’s, then it’s going to scare them off. It really does come back to being able to read the signals the other person is giving you. If they are saying “You’re really nice and I want to get to know you better” and you are responding “Yeah! And I can totally see us getting married someday, and what names do you like if our firstborn is a boy because I would want to name him after both our dads - say, what is your dad’s name anyway?”, then you are headed for trouble. This advice is gender neutral because it works both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/167 "2009-05-19T14:05:22Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > For the love of God, can we tone down the “men are like”/“women are like” business? > > I’ve said this a million times and it’s apparently still worth saying: _if it all had to do with how much trouble women and men have with understanding one another because they’re so damn different, gays and lesbians would never have any trouble dating, and we fucking do._ So, Matt, does the world implode in a sort of passive aggressive black hole when two “nice guys” start dating? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/168 "2009-05-19T15:04:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That is exactly my point. I mean they get those people from somewhere. You don’t think there are real life girls who are only interested in guys in a band? Or guys with money? Or meathead player types? Yeah, so what? There are all kinds of lunatics in real life, and the fact that reality TV shows pluck them out of crazyland to exploit them doesn’t say anything about actual human behavior. > [@](#): > > There is, in fact, something “mucked up” in their brain that makes them think that certain superficial qualities are the most important thing about those people. They meet a nice, normal, regular job working guy and it’s just boring. “Yeah, he’s a great guy, but…blah blah blah.” And guys do the same thing too. So your point is some people are stupid? Okay, I agree. But if your point is because someone is nice and normal and has a steady job (etc) that potential mates should be interested, then I disagree. Why should those be automatic criteria for selection? There are plenty of functional, healthy people in the world, and we don’t all have to get on with or be attracted to every single one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/169 "2009-05-19T15:09:18Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > So, Matt, does the world implode in a sort of passive aggressive black hole when two “nice guys” start dating? Eventually. Same-sex dating is a threat to traditional dating! Dating = 1 man + 1 woman + a restaurant bill Gays can date people of the opposite sex if they want to! We’re not abridging their rights! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/170 "2009-05-19T15:30:43Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > For the love of God, can we tone down the “men are like”/“women are like” business? Can I still do my ‘butch lesbians are like this, lipsticks are like this, waka waka waka’ bit? It’s gold! I’ve definitely seen the curse of the ‘nice guy’ in gay friends’ relationships (oddly, lesbians I know seem to be genuinely nice or explicitly bitch – maybe it’s just my circles). Exact same scenario really – friend gets annoyed with the ‘nice guy’ even though, on paper, he’s cute and friendly and has a good job. But every reason they have not to date the nice guy is countered with ‘But he’s so nice…’ and they’re the ones saying it! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/171 "2009-05-19T15:49:25Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > This advice is gender neutral because it works both ways. The female version of the “nice guy” - you ask her out for a Friday night. She starts referring to you as “her boyfriend” before the date occurs. The date is pleasant enough - although she spends too much time talking about how great you are, how she never gets to date good looking guys like you, and how thrilled she is that you have a good job. She is willing to bet that your mother is sweet and can’t wait to meet her. But this is all just slightly uncomfortable, and balanced by her being good looking, fairly intellegent, and nice. She makes some reference to her sister’s wedding in six weeks that infers you will be her date, but the reference is subtle enough that you can’t really call her on it. She is attractive, and there is chemistry, and maybe even sex (she is willing and good looking). The next day you don’t call her - and you don’t call her Sunday either. But she calls you at work on Monday (you didn’t give her your work phone number, but you told her where you work) with 'hey, I haven’t heard from you, do you want to go for a bike ride this evening." You mention you will be out, and tomorrow doesn’t work for you either because you need to get all this laundry done. You show up Monday evening to find your roommate has let her in to your apartment and she is folding your jockey shorts for you. Now you’ll have tomorrow evening free to go to a movie! ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/172 "2009-05-19T16:06:46Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > I married the guy. Same here: Only I’m the guy, and I married the girl. Ed ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/173 "2009-05-19T16:14:15Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Yeah, so what? There are all kinds of lunatics in real life, and the fact that reality TV shows pluck them out of crazyland to exploit them doesn’t say anything about actual human behavior. > > So your point is some people are stupid? Okay, I agree. But if your point is because someone is nice and normal and has a steady job (etc) that potential mates should be interested, then I disagree. Why should those be automatic criteria for selection? There are plenty of functional, healthy people in the world, and we don’t all have to get on with or be attracted to every single one of them. I’m not sure why you are getting so hostile, other than maybe you are, in fact, a bitter mean old lady, but I wish you would stop. My point is simply that being a nice guy doesn’t mean you are a clingy weirdo passive-aggressive stalker. If a girl thinks you are “too nice” because you aren’t into booze and drugs, you aren’t a totally violent badass and you actually hold a boring 9-5 job, I don’t think that’s a character flaw. She’s just not the girl for you. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/174 "2009-05-19T16:29:56Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > You cannot be serious. Oh my Lord, I am laughing out loud as I type this. Daisy of Fucking Love? > > Have you ever watched Rock of Love, where an old man in eye-liner limits himself to a group of sociopaths in clear heels, and wonders why he’s still searching for The One? > > It’s a frickin’ reality show. And moreover, some people (regardless of gender) are too mucked up about the brain in order to realize their unhealthy behaviors and priorities are what’s getting in the way. What the hell does Daisy of Love have to do with anything? Well, duh! Don’t you know that reality tv (especially hosted by the esteemed Rikki Rachman, natch!) is the very example of modern life in America? I mean, psychiatrists around the world must use gems as examples for their patients and cite them in medical journals regarding human behavior. Didn’t you know? I grew up in the country and learned all I know about black people by watching “Flavor of Love” with Flavor Flav. I think it has served me well. The next time I see something incredibly stupid on tv I can now answer the question “Who watches this crap?” ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/175 "2009-05-19T16:31:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m not sure why you are getting so hostile, other than maybe you are, in fact, a bitter mean old lady, but I wish you would stop. Ha! I didn’t realize I was being hostile. But you calling someone bitter is hilarious. > [@](#): > > My point is simply that being a nice guy doesn’t mean you are a clingy weirdo passive-aggressive stalker. If a girl thinks you are “too nice” because you aren’t into booze and drugs, you aren’t a totally violent badass and you actually hold a boring 9-5 job, I don’t think that’s a character flaw. She’s just not the girl for you. All right, pal. You win. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/176 "2009-05-19T16:31:17Z")
Hey, don’t bust on Rikki. _Headbanger’s Ball_ was a great show. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/177 "2009-05-19T18:44:40Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Ha! I didn’t realize I was being hostile. Your writing style sounds hostile. All your "ha!"s and "oh my lord!"s make me picture you as Edna Crabapple from The Simpsons. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > But you calling someone bitter is hilarious. Because…you think bitter people are hilarious? 😕 I don’t really consider myself a bitter person (I mean other than hating my job like a lot of people) so I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > All right, pal. You win. I’m not your pal, chief. ---
**Author:** ![MoodIndigo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@MoodIndigo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoodIndigo1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/178 "2009-05-19T21:48:59Z")
There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to humans, so we all have to muddle through life somehow. BTW, met my first husband (who died after 14 years marriage) when he picked up the phone at a friend’s place. Said friend was busy, so we chatted for a few minutes. He proposed that we meet in a cafe for a drink the next day, I agreed to 2 days later. He proposed that evening. I thought “you have to be kidding, buster”, but I answered: “What do you expect me to answer to a question like that?” thinking I’d call his bluff. He replied: “Yes, of course.” -“Ok then” I replied. We were married two months later to the day. It wasn’t the best of marriages, but it had a lot of good points, and we had loads of interests in common. Some years after his death, I remarried-- after dating this guy for 5 years. Point is, I repeat, there are no rules or best systems. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/179 "2009-05-20T00:01:36Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > We’ll leave aside for the moment whether it is a code, but it’s hard to believe that you honestly are asking why women don’t just tell someone “Look, you seem fairly pleasant and inoffensive, but you also seem to be utterly lacking in any backbone or interests of your own, and I find that off-putting.” Even a basic, cursory awareness of the most fundamental rules of social interaction ought to explain to you why we don’t say that. Even though this thread is about guys being rejected and wanting to know the reasons, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of women out there who are being rejected and want to know the reasons. So, I wonder if it makes sense to have some sort of dating website where the participants agree that, if after a few dates they no longer want to continue to see each other, they go back to the website and both fill in a simple feedback form. If you don’t fill in the feedback form, you don’t get “points”, and the website limits your options (basically, there has to be some incentive for people to fill out the feedback form) This way, both men and women, after going on many unsuccessful dates will hopefully start seeing a pattern and can decide on whether they want to change their ways. Of course, even in an online feedback form, people may not be willing to be as truthful, but it may be easier to give this feedback online rather than in person. Does the idea make any sense, or would it never work? Do any dating websites have anything resembling this? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457/180 "2009-05-20T05:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Next time I’ve promised myself I will take it slower (for my sake, for various related reasons), but Lord I hate all the artificial restraint, the Steps A/B/C/D which you violate at your own peril, etc. etc. If you both really dig each other, really, why do all the self-conscious holding back? Why not just let things go where they will, carefree and guileless? I know exactly where you’re coming from, and it used to drive me nuts. But these days, I see it terms of risk/reward: A little too aloof Risk: She might not think you’re that interested in her Reward: She might get comfortable enough to step things up to the level you want A little too ‘passionate’ Risk: She will be creeped out Reward: She might be on the same page and jump your bones Of the four outcomes, the last one tends to be the rarest, at least in my experience. At least if you make an effort to hold back/keep it in your pants if she hasn’t sent any obvious signals yet, it encourages her to take the initiative and give you some indication she’d like things to progress. Even if that doesn’t work out (she doesn’t think you’re that interested) its entirely possible she wasn’t that interested, either, so you might not have anything to lose. However, if you’re trying too hard, its just way too likely she’ll get creeped out. And when a woman is creeped out by a guy/trying to jump ship, she often won’t give a reason- its not up for negotiation or discussion because she doesn’t want to get dragged into an argument about something she’s already made up her mind on. If you can get the hang of it, then it gets progressively easier over time. I used to be frustrated because I didn’t know what the hell I was doing wrong- I’d go on a date, enjoy things on my end, but the woman would seemingly drop off the face of the earth. This used to bug me. Later I realized the more it bothered me the more I was letting it get in the way of meeting other, potentially more interesting/compatible/hotter/etc women. When I started restraining my interest (not ignoring the woman, mind you, just reining it in to non-creepy levels 🆒 ) I started getting second, third dates, invitations to her apartment for “coffee” _Giggity!_ and that was kind of like positive reinforcement that made it feel more natural. Anyway this is my own personal exprience with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-perspective-on-nice-guys-and-the-women-who-wont-date-them/496457.md?page=10)