# Another reason to hate the Braves **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2000, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701 "2000-06-27T05:45:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701/41 "2000-06-30T14:18:55Z")
As much as I am still reeling from the fact that a) the Indians made a trade with the frigging Yankees, and b) traded their best hitter while Manny is still out, I can’t see how this is anything but a good move for the Yanks, NothingMan. (Personal to John Hart: Don’t pretend like you’re clearing salary to resign Ramirez as a free agent. Under the previous ownership, it was made abundantly clear that no player would be paid more than $10 million a year, and the new ownership is trying to recoup acquisition costs. And if I hear the word “rebuilding,” I’ll scream. The Indians spent 40 years rebuilding.) Anyhow, look at their career stats (both made their ML debuts in 1989): ```auto [sub] AVG R H HR BB SO OBP SLG SOSA .270 895 1506 357 473 1452 .328 .514 JUSTICE .282 774 1289 256 740 808 .381 .509[/sub] ``` Over the long haul, Justice has a higher BA, gets on base more, walks a **lot** more, and strikes out a **lot** less. Nearly half of Sosa’s career runs are homers (and over 150 of those in the last 3 seasons); Justice turns a lot more hits and walks into runs. Oh, and he has a World Series win, beating the Indians in 1995 with a Game 6-winning HR off of Jim Poole. Even in 2000, you’re getting about equal productivity from Justice: ```auto [sub] AVG R H HR BB SO OBP SLG SOSA .312 54 93 21 45 83 .399 .587 JUSTICE .265 46 66 21 38 49 .361 .582[/sub] ``` In fact, despite the difference in BA, Sosa has struck out nearly 100 times before the All-Star Break, compared to half that for Justice; and it appears from only 54 runs on 96 hits, whoever is batting behind Sammy has a lot of GDP in their scorecard. Justice, on the other hand, has 46 runs on 66 hits. (Take away the 21 homers, and Justice looks a lot better-- 25 runs on 45 hits compared to 33 runs on 72 hits.) [Edited by TubaDiva to fix word wrap. Sorry.] ---
**Author:** ![SoxFan59](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@SoxFan59](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoxFan59)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701/42 "2000-06-30T15:15:25Z")
Thanks for the stats Phil! I’ve been accused of sour grapes about Sosa, him being an ex-member of my favorite team, but the reason why the White Sox got rid of him was his attitude. All Sammy has ever cared about was Sammy. Monster talent, yes, but self centered and unteachable. He took Roberto Clemente potential and turned himself into an overachieving version of Dave Kingman (that is, more home runs than Dave). Dave Justice is a very good major leaguer. Not a hall of famer down the road, mind you, but makes a significant contribution to any team. He’d look good in a Sox uniform (though I dare say we need a 5th pitcher much more than another outfielder). That fact that you can compare their career and current numbers and have Dave come out on top (more or less) each time speaks volumes about Sammy’s overrated view of himself. Don’t get me wrong. Sammy is a great player. But he’s no Roberto Clemente. Heck, he might not even be a Dave Justice. Building a team around a player like Sosa results in just what is happening on Chicago’s north side. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2000, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701/43 "2000-06-30T18:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is fine with me, since it does not involve the likes of the **Red Sox** , Orioles, Braves or Indians winning it - teams I would love to see never win a game again. Eat Joe Torres’ shit and die, you goatfelching chumbucket reject. Only reason I don’t hate Toronto completely is because they’re keeping the Yanks in second place in the division, with a half-game between them and the BoSox. Plenty enough wiggle room to move your boys down a notch and keep 'em there. (insert several winkies here!) Not that I know jack shit about baseball. I just root for Boston 'cos I’m a New Englander and I think the Yankees have done enough lording it over us 'cos we were stupid enough to trade you the Babe. We coulda been kings of the century, we could. Yeah, yeah, I know you guys were talking about the Braves and the shitty way they treat their announcers, so this is way off topic. But **Satan** started it, he brought in the Red Sox completely out of the blue! ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2000, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701/44 "2000-07-01T06:14:53Z")
I give an edge to Sosa, mainly because he’s two years younger. While Justice has outpeformed Sosa offensively in his career, Sosa’s more recent production (last five years) or so, has been superior. However, I personally believe that the perceived difference between the two players vastly exceeds their actual difference. And Justice was obtained a LOT cheaper than the rumored deal for Sosa! Unless _at least_ one of the players to be named later is Adrian Hernandez, Drew Henson, Nick Johnson, Alfonso Soriano or D’Angelo Jiminez, this trade was an absolute rip off for the Yankees, and Cleveland got HOSED. (Even Henson and Jiminez are risky, the latter because of a serious injury, and the former because of the possibility he might play in the NFL instead.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-to-hate-the-braves/23701.md?page=2)