# Another Reason Why DOMA is the Bullshittiest Piece of Bullshit
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [July 24, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253 "2012-07-24T16:25:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/21 "2012-07-25T15:46:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No, no, quite right. My point is that if they didn’t want to marry, they’d have no reason to complain at not getting DOMA benefits. If they did want to marry but were forbidden from doing so, THEN they were screwed by DOMA.
>
> See what I mean? No one would rail about a long-term opposite-sex unmarried couple being screwed by DOMA, because they had every chance to marry and thus receive federal benefits.
>
> It’s like saying you were screwed by Netflix because they stopped doing DVD and streaming services together, and my pointing out you weren’t a Netflix subscriber anyway.
Of course, If they had the option and had decided to get married, of course, caveat accepted for this specific case. The point of course is to serve as an example, though of how fucking idiotic DOMA is that someone like Sally Ride, if she had chose to be married to her female partner, could not get the same benefits as a heterosexual married couple, because…the gay.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/22 "2012-07-25T15:48:22Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#):
>
> Of course, If they had the option and had decided to get married, of course, caveat accepted for this specific case. The point of course is to serve as an example, though of how fucking idiotic DOMA is that someone like Sally Ride, if she had chose to be married to her female partner, could not get the same benefits as a heterosexual married couple, because…the gay.
Absolutely. It’s an excellent illustration of foolishness.
---
### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/23 "2012-07-25T15:57:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No, no, quite right. My point is that if they didn’t want to marry, they’d have no reason to complain at not getting DOMA benefits. If they did want to marry but were forbidden from doing so, THEN they were screwed by DOMA.
As far as I know, the parties directly involved haven’t complained; the case is being cited as an example of the idiocy of the policy.
In any case, I’m not sure of the relevance of the former point. If somebody sneaks into your house, borrows your computer without permission for a few hours, and jams your bedroom door shut to make sure you don’t emerge to interrupt them, has either a crime or a moral offense been committed if you remain sound asleep (and thus would not attempt to leave the room or use the computer) until the interloper finishes what he was doing, removes all evidence of his presence, and departs?
---
### Author:  [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/24 "2012-07-25T17:25:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No, no, quite right. My point is that if they didn’t want to marry, they’d have no reason to complain at not getting DOMA benefits. If they did want to marry but were forbidden from doing so, THEN they were screwed by DOMA.
What if they hadn’t wanted to engage in a sham that didn’t include all the benefits that marriage does? I understand your point, but I think it’s a weak one - until gay marriage is actually equivalent in all jurisdictions to straight marriage, it’s disingenuous to say “they didn’t want to be married.” You could say “they didn’t want to enter an arrangement applicable only within a few states (one of which - their home state later reversed its policy) that approximates, but does not mandate recognition of, marriage,” but that’s a mouthful that only a lawyer could love.
A federally recognized marriage wasn’t available to them. It’s a stretch to fault them for not taking advantage of a lesser alternative.
---
### Author:  [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/25 "2012-07-25T20:30:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No, no, quite right. My point is that if they didn’t want to marry, they’d have no reason to complain at not getting DOMA benefits. . . .
Only a lawyer…
Yeah, the perp murdered the victim…but what if the victim had been about to commit suicide?
---
### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/26 "2012-07-25T21:12:11Z")
She also can’t inherit any community property that’s not specifically mentioned in a will. If she is mentioned in a will, if Ride came from a greedy family that wanted to challenge it, many courts would give them a lot more validity than they would the family of any married person with a surviving spouse.
Ride died of natural causes, but if she had died as the result of malpractice, or for that matter if the director of NASA had decided to drop a 16 ton weight on her in front of 5,000 witnesses as a joke, O’Shaughnessy would not have had anymore right to bring a wrongful death suit than I would. If O’Shaugnessy was in a vegetative state, O’Shaughnessy would have had no right to choose whether to pull the plug or keep her alive artificially, and even with a written p.o.a. to O’Shaughnessy if Ride’s family objected the hospital would probably go with family. Ride’s sister is a lesbian, but if she were an anti-gay evangelical she could have prevented O’Shaugnessy from visiting her in the hospital any time that Ride was unconscious or too weak to protest.
In pretty much every thread about gay celebrities on SDMB and other sites, you’re invariably going to get several “I don’t care/who cares if celebrities are gay or straight or other?/I don’t care/know who doesn’t care about a celebrity’s orientation”/I don’t care" comments, and I even understand and to some degree appreciate that many people don’t mean it offensively and are saying it just shouldn’t matter. However, this is why it matters A WHOLE FUCKING LOT to many of us- each openly gay celebrity/famous person, is that much more visibility, and especially when it’s somebody like Sally Ride who has lived a much accoladed life and whose private life seems just as normal save for pronoun as anybody else’s that person just might make the difference in changing the opinion of somebody somewhere out there, and believe you me _every changed mind counts_.
---
### Author:  [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/27 "2012-07-25T21:37:57Z")
Bricker’s not wrong here. We don’t know for a fact that Ride wanted to be married. However, it’s indisputable that there are thousands upon thousands of same-sex couple that do want to be married, and O’Shaugnessy is far from the first person to suffer legal problems after their partner passes. I’m sure Bricker does not dispute the general case.
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/28 "2012-07-25T21:45:22Z")
I think this is the kind of thing that’s eventually going to defeat opposition to same-sex marriage.
I think there’s a lot of people who sort of object to same-sex marriage in the abstract. But these same people would also object when they see an example of some individual they know - a friend, a relative, a co-worker, a celebrity - not be allowed to get married. That reduces the abstract down to the specific and they can now see the unfairness of a ban against same-sex marriage.
---
### Author:  [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/29 "2012-07-25T21:56:04Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#):
>
> My first marriage was entered into precisely because The Army provided several hundred extra bucks/month (like $500 or so if I recall correctly) as Basic Allowance for Quarters to married soldiers. Nevermind I was living in barracks in Monterrey, CA and she was in college in WallaWalla, Wa (no really). We were pals, she needed the money and we figured we’d probably end up getting married someday anyway so what the hell.
No offense but how is that a fraud marriage? You two were actually in a relationship after all.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/30 "2012-07-25T21:59:35Z")
I think his point is that they primarily got married for the additional quarters benefit, not because they each thought the other would be a swell life partner or whatever. I found the “no offense” disclaimer a little amusing, by the way. What’s he going to say? “How\* dare \*you characterize my relationship as sincere?”
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> I have had women say “That’s it, I’ve had it, I’m leaving!” But they never actually left the _planet_! That’s gotta sting!
There’s got to be a “…last man on Earth” joke in here somewhere.
---
### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/31 "2012-07-25T22:07:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I read that as if there are more women available to date, there are more women for \*\*'luci \*\*to piss off.
Ah. Makes more sense when read in conjunction with post 5.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/32 "2012-07-26T03:46:13Z")
> [@Enginerd](#):
>
> What if they hadn’t wanted to engage in a sham that didn’t include all the benefits that marriage does? I understand your point, but I think it’s a weak one - until gay marriage is actually equivalent in all jurisdictions to straight marriage, it’s disingenuous to say “they didn’t want to be married.” You could say “they didn’t want to enter an arrangement applicable only within a few states (one of which - their home state later reversed its policy) that approximates, but does not mandate recognition of, marriage,” but that’s a mouthful that only a lawyer could love.
>
> A federally recognized marriage wasn’t available to them. It’s a stretch to fault them for not taking advantage of a lesser alternative.
Good thing I never said they didn’t want to be married, then, eh?
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/33 "2012-07-26T03:47:54Z")
> [@JSexton](#):
>
> Bricker’s not wrong here. We don’t know for a fact that Ride wanted to be married. However, it’s indisputable that there are thousands upon thousands of same-sex couple that do want to be married, and O’Shaugnessy is far from the first person to suffer legal problems after their partner passes. I’m sure Bricker does not dispute the general case.
Far from it. Marriage is not the business of the Feds in any event; they should simply recognize a legal marriage from a state. DOMA’s section 3 is horribly wrong.
---
### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/34 "2012-07-26T04:28:28Z")
Don’t more than half of marriages end up in divorce anyway? Think of the trouble you are being saved, teh Gay.
No pleasing some people…
---
### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/35 "2012-07-26T14:02:53Z")
> [@grude](#):
>
> No offense but how is that a fraud marriage? You two were actually in a relationship after all.
Fair question. Under the current arrangement we were just friends with no commitment and no intent to lay eyes on each other for at least the next 18-24 months, if even then. It was only the marriage that caused us to cohabitate after that time period. By “probably end up getting married someday anyway” I meant we had both managed to offend anyone else we’d attempted to have relationships with–we were each other’s last resort.
---
### Author:  [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/36 "2012-07-26T15:30:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Marriage is not the business of the Feds in any event
Well, the US is a signatory of the UDHR and marriage is one of the provisions everyone’s entitled to there.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/37 "2012-07-26T15:41:54Z")
The Declaration of Human Rights isn’t positive law. It’s more… aspirational.
---
### Author:  [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/38 "2012-07-26T15:53:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#):
>
> Only a lawyer…
>
> Yeah, the perp murdered the victim…but what if the victim had been about to commit suicide?
Is this the old “I fired a pistol out the window just as a suicide jumper fell by the window and I hit him and killed him…am I guilty of murder/manslaughter” question?
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/39 "2012-07-26T16:07:46Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#):
>
> Well, the US is a signatory of the UDHR and marriage is one of the provisions everyone’s entitled to there.
So what?
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights does not carry the force of compelling law.
And even if it did, it only protects the rights of men and women to marry:
> [@Art 12](#):
>
> (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
In 2010, the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights upheld Austria’s refusal to marry Horst Michael Schalk and Johann Franz Kopf, a same-sex couple who petitioned for review, claiming as you do that the UDHR protects same-sex marriage.
> [@European Court of Human Rights](#):
>
> At the same time the Charter left the decision whether or not to allow same-sex marriage to regulation by member States’ national law. The Court underlined that national authorities were best placed to assess and respond to the needs of society in this field, given that marriage had deep-rooted social and cultural connotations differing largely from one society to another.
>
> In conclusion, the Court found that Article 12 did not impose an obligation on the Austrian Government to grant a same-sex couple like the applicants access to marriage. It therefore unanimously held that there had been no violation of that Article.
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253/40 "2012-07-26T16:19:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> And even if it did, it only protects the rights of men and women to marry:
> [@](#):
>
> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
The fact that both spouses happen to be men (or women) doesn’t seem to be addressed at all in the UDHR.
Even your own statement “only protects the rights of men and women to marry” One of the spouses is a man, he has the right to marry. The other spouse is a man, HE has the right to marry. I’m not sure where the disconnect is coming from, they both have the right to marry, they both are consenting adults, they both want to form a family.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253.md?page=1)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-reason-why-doma-is-the-bullshittiest-piece-of-bullshit/629253.md?page=3)