# Another recount circus? Florida. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 2, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638 "2016-12-02T15:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/21 "2016-12-02T17:19:54Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > As I said, _it has no legal impact. It doesn’t decide the winner_. I never claimed otherwise, so why are people arguing with me? > > As to your point about caring about it: Are you seriously comparing football statistics to voting for the President of the United States? > > Do you seriously believe that the fact that no one cares much about a football statistic logically leads to the conclusion that no one should care about a totally different and much more important thing? > > I’m beginning to see why this election went the way it did. Too many people were thinking about it as a team sport. You are missing the point, and have been ever since after the election: **The aggregated vote totals across all 50 states and the District of Columbia are _irrelevant_**. Yet you (and others) point to them as if they **do** have some relevance. Which they don’t. And then you get all upset when people use metaphors and similes to show _why_ they aren’t relevant. If you don’t want to be argued with on this topic, don’t keep bringing up irrelevant statistics in discussion of the presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/22 "2016-12-02T17:21:35Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Do you seriously believe that the fact that no one cares much about a football statistic logically leads to the conclusion that no one should care about a totally different and much more important thing? > > I’m beginning to see why this election went the way it did. Too many people were thinking about it as a team sport. Do you know what the word _analogy_ means? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/23 "2016-12-02T17:24:27Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Which is, of course, nothing at all like the Presidential vote. Representatives represent the people in their districts. The President represents everyone. No, the President does not “represent” everyone. He’s not a “representative.” He/she is the head of the administrative branch of the federal government, the person who runs how our money is spent, tells our military what to do, and talks to the leaders of foreign nations. He is most decidedly **NOT** the representative of the people; the framers of the Constitution considered that idea and rejected it soundly. And he is not chosen “by the people”; he is chosen by the states, who collect electors who vote for who should be this presiding officer of the administration. The fact that the states have generally decided since the mid-1800s to allow their voters to make this choice for them doesn’t change the basic premise of who/what the President is. Which is why the statistic you refer to is _irrelevant_ (note, I don’t say “meaningless”). ETA: I do wonder sometimes if people ever really get a good course in civics any more, not to mention a good understanding of American constitutional history. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/24 "2016-12-02T17:25:35Z")
Yeah, the “popular vote” is meaningless in terms of presidential elections. Like someone else said-- to make references to American football-- the aim of the game isn’t to put up more yards than your opponent, but to score more points them your opponent. And Trump scored more points. No one thinks “Team A” should have won because they outgained their opponent by 200 yards yet scored 20 less points than “Team B”. Complaining about that when both parties went in knowing the rules reeks of being a sore loser. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/25 "2016-12-02T17:30:10Z")
But the reality in the 21st century is that, for better or worse, Presidential decisions do have a direct impact on people’s lives, regardless of what the founding fathers intended. We need to recognize that reality and stop giving people in some states more political power simply because where they live is sparsely populated. We should stop this hijack now. I keep doing this and I apologize for that. This thread is for discussing the hopeless attempt at a Florida recount. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/26 "2016-12-02T18:06:39Z")
From post #1 [http://www.salon.com/2016/12/01/skip](http://www.salon.com/2016/12/01/skip)…-donald-trump/ > [@](#): > > As The Denver Post reported on Wednesday, a group of electoral college voters from Colorado dubbed themselves the “Hamilton electors” and filed paperwork on Tuesday with the Colorado Secretary of State to create a 527 group, allowing them to raise unlimited amounts of donations from individuals, corporations and labor unions. Their goal? To convince as many Republican electors as possible to defect from the Trump camp. If enough are swayed to do this, they would either cause a deadlock in the Electoral College (throwing the election to the House of Representatives) or result in the election of an entirely different candidate. Yes, throwing the election into the hands of the Republican led Congress which already has rules about what to do in the case of neither party obtaining the necessary 270 electoral votes, but first it will have to be fast tracked by the Supreme Court and they will surely see this as a bribe or some legal term like that making the votes not count for either side. If this happens all hell is going to break loose … do you think for one minute that Donald Trump and half of the voters (minus two million or so voters) of the USA are going to stand for this? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/27 "2016-12-02T18:12:30Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > From post #1 > > [http://www.salon.com/2016/12/01/skip](http://www.salon.com/2016/12/01/skip)…-donald-trump/ I am sure a bunch of Democratic electors are going to be able to “sway” 37 Republican electors… So far I am not aware of any Republican electors whatsoever “swayed”. One resigned, and will be replaced. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/28 "2016-12-02T18:21:40Z")
The “Hamilton Electors” sounds like just as much of a money-grabbing scheme as Jill Stein’s recounts. I wonder if they’ll each pay themselves a generous salary out of the funds raised, you know, just to cover their expenses while they’re so hard at work “swaying” Republican electors. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/29 "2016-12-02T18:55:04Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > You are missing the point, and have been ever since after the election: > > **The aggregated vote totals across all 50 states and the District of Columbia are _irrelevant_**. Yet you (and others) point to them as if they **do** have some relevance… They’re _highly_ relevant if you want to know what the majority (or plurality) of US voting citizens would prefer to elect to a national office. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/30 "2016-12-02T19:07:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > No, the President does not “represent” everyone. He’s not a “representative.” He/she is the head of the administrative branch of the federal government, the person who runs how our money is spent, tells our military what to do, and talks to the leaders of foreign nations. He is most decidedly **NOT** the representative of the people; the framers of the Constitution considered that idea and rejected it soundly. And he is not chosen “by the people”; he is chosen by the states, who collect electors who vote for who should be this presiding officer of the administration. The fact that the states have generally decided since the mid-1800s to allow their voters to make this choice for them doesn’t change the basic premise of who/what the President is. > > Which is why the statistic you refer to is _irrelevant_ (note, I don’t say “meaningless”). > > ETA: I do wonder sometimes if people ever really get a good course in civics any more, not to mention a good understanding of American constitutional history. They evidently don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/31 "2016-12-02T20:35:34Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Wouldn’t verifying that the vote count is correct actually, by definition, count as enforcing the choice of the people? My point regarding creepiness refers more to those calling for the electors to disallow the winner and select someone the petitioners prefer — or in some far-gone cases ‘_ **Anyone** but Trump_’, be it Pence, Romney, Cruz or Rubio. \* Seeing as how all these old creeps will be so much better for the poor and liberal. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/32 "2016-12-02T21:01:14Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > — or in some far-gone cases ‘_ **Anyone** but Trump_’, be it Pence, Romney, Cruz or Rubio. \* > Seeing as how all these old creeps will be so much better for the poor and liberal. Cruz and Rubio are 45 yrs old. What age are you? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/33 "2016-12-02T21:20:17Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > It’s kind of creepy having all these groups purposed to move from the choice of the people \* to an appointed leader. > > - Idiots though they be. He wasn’t the choice of the people. Hillary got the majority of the votes. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/34 "2016-12-02T21:34:33Z")
[Plurality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_(voting)) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/35 "2016-12-02T21:50:46Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > He wasn’t the choice of the people. Hillary got the majority of the votes. But the adding up all of the votes across the US is irrelevant. It’s no more a measure of the “choice of the people” than a restaurant with the highest Yelp rating being the best restaurant in town. Both candidates campaigned based upon the election rules as laid out. Are you going to suggest that campaigning doesn’t matter? If the election rules had been determined to be majority of the popular vote across all states, then the campaigning would have been drastically different. We don’t know what the outcome would have been. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/36 "2016-12-02T21:57:40Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > But the adding up all of the votes across the US is irrelevant. It’s no more a measure of the “choice of the people” than a restaurant with the highest Yelp rating being the best restaurant in town. > > Both candidates campaigned based upon the election rules as laid out. Are you going to suggest that campaigning doesn’t matter? If the election rules had been determined to be majority of the popular vote across all states, then the campaigning would have been drastically different. We don’t know what the outcome would have been. But you can’t have it both ways. If the popular vote isn’t what chooses the President then you can’t say he’s the choice of the people. He’s the choice of the states or the electoral college or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/37 "2016-12-02T22:41:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But you can’t have it both ways. If the popular vote isn’t what chooses the President then you can’t say he’s the choice of the people. He’s the choice of the states or the electoral college or whatever. I never called him the choice of the people, hell I didn’t even vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/38 "2016-12-02T23:00:55Z")
For the complete junkies, here is the WI recount spreadsheet for 2 days: [http://elections.wi.gov/sites/default/files/publication/265/2016\_general\_election\_recount\_12\_02\_16\_xlsx\_17660.xlsx](http://elections.wi.gov/sites/default/files/publication/265/2016_general_election_recount_12_02_16_xlsx_17660.xlsx) I see the largest difference in fully recounted precincts of 4 votes or so. But it is interesting that most (I think) recounted precincts show some small counting errors - who knows if it is in the original count or in the re-count. Shows that the error rate in counting votes (and this applies both to hand-counts and machine-counts) is way higher than just one vote. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/39 "2016-12-02T23:01:38Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I never called him the choice of the people, hell I didn’t even vote for him. Then you shouldn’t have jumped in the middle of two people discussing exactly that. > [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > It’s kind of creepy having all these groups purposed to move from the choice of the people \* to an appointed leader. > [@GoodOmens](#): > > Wouldn’t verifying that the vote count is correct actually, by definition, count as enforcing the choice of the people? > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > But the adding up all of the votes across the US is irrelevant. It’s no more a measure of the “choice of the people” than a restaurant with the highest Yelp rating being the best restaurant in town. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638/40 "2016-12-02T23:08:24Z")
About that recount spreadsheet I posted - one thing that bothers me a bit… In a lot of precincts the recount total votes do not match the original total. I understand that during the election process, the total number of voters is also marked off in the registration books (at least that is how it was at my voting place). Granted, the mismatch is in low single digits, but shouldn’t those match the counting total on the election night, and if not, should they not count again until they do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-recount-circus-florida/773638.md?page=3)