# Another School Shooting \[Stoneman Douglas\] (2/14/2018) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843 "2018-02-14T20:22:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/401 "2018-03-22T03:13:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > […] I don’t think issues among family members have a rightful place in the national dialog when it comes to gun ownership intended to allow people to defend themselves from robberies, home intrusions, carjackings, etc. First of all, because such murders among family are rare compared to instances of street crime. Second, because they’re usually the result of anger, jealousy or some other emotionally issue and not related to criminal intent. […] :dubious: Do you think that what you euphemistically describe as “issues among family members” (by which you appear to mean “murders of family members”) **do** have a rightful place in discussions of gun ownership for **other** purposes? That is, do you believe that shooting a family member in a domestic dispute should disqualify the shooter from owning guns for recreational/hobby/hunting etc. reasons? Moreover, although IANAL I doubt that your attempted distinction between “emotionally issue” [_sic_] and “criminal intent” is valid. Shooting someone when you’re angry, jealous or otherwise upset can still involve [criminal intent](https://thelawdictionary.org/criminal-intent/): > [@](#): > > There are multiple shades of criminal intent that may be applied in situations ranging from outright premeditation to spontaneous action. > > It is possible to establish criminal intent even when a crime is not premeditated. Individuals who commit a crime spontaneously may still understand that their actions will cause harm to another party and contravene existing criminal law. In other words, an individual that takes or withholds action with the knowledge that such behavior will lead to the commission of a crime can be said to possess criminal intent. So no, just because you’re emotionally upset when you shoot the family member you’re quarreling with does **not** mean that your crime is “not related to criminal intent”. Other posters have already pointed out how far off base you are in your claims about the “rarity” of domestic gun crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/402 "2018-03-22T03:30:21Z")
So murders don’t count, it seems, if they are private enough. On a related note, a cardboard tube makes a handy improvised silencer. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/403 "2018-03-22T05:23:56Z")
It’s not murder if it’s family, silly. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/404 "2018-03-22T06:09:25Z")
> [@Hector the Librarian](#): > > Of course, **Starving Artist** is wrong when he says that familial homicides are rare relative to other homicides. Half of homicides are committed by people who know the victim. 25% are committed by a family member. > > Among women, about half of homicides are intimate partner violence. > > To nobody’s surprise, Starving Artist is a fucking moron. No u. It’s obvious this has escaped what passes for a mind in your case, but I didn’t say family homicides are rare compared to other homicides. I said they’re rare compared to instances of street crimes. Which they are. > [@Hector the Librarian](#): > > Fun facts: There are about 11 murder-suicide incidents per week in the US. Good thing that we can discount those suicides, since they are just suicides, and most of those victims, since those are just “family issues”. It’s the car jackings that really matter! In terms of the reasons why people want to own guns for self-defense, yes, they do. So do rapes, robberies, home intrusions, shootings in places of business, etc. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Do you think that what you euphemistically describe as “issues among family members” (by which you appear to mean “murders of family members”) do have a rightful place in discussions of gun ownership for other purposes? Nope. I stated this in so many words, as a matter of fact, and why. Are you sure you phrased this the way you intended? > [@Kimstu](#): > > That is, do you believe that shooting a family member in a domestic dispute should disqualify the shooter from owning guns for recreational/hobby/hunting etc. reasons? Well now, that’s different question, isn’t it? Of course I think that someone who shoots a family member should be disqualified from owning or possessing a gun altogether (provided that the shooting was not in self-defense that is). I also think they should be disqualified from being free and not in jail, or at least until they’ve served a period of time commensurate with their crime. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Moreover, although IANAL I doubt that your attempted distinction between “emotionally issue” [sic] and “criminal intent” is valid. Shooting someone when you’re angry, jealous or otherwise upset can still involve criminal intent: Certainly. Prosecutors and judges have perverted the meaning of premeditation and criminal intent to include all sorts of things most people don’t think of when they hear the terms. I’ve seen it argued that the very act of reaching for a gun prior to shooting someone is clear evidence of premeditation and criminal intent. So what? I’ve never once heard of anyone desiring to own guns so as to protect themselves or their families from random unknown people who have shot family members and then headed out in search of someone else to shoot. Have you? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Other posters have already pointed out how far off base you are in your claims about the “rarity” of domestic gun crimes. Since you’re so fond of nitpicking my every word I feel compelled to point out that it wasn’t other “posters” who made that claim, only one. And he’s an idiot whom only a fool would believe about anything. To reiterate what I said above in this very post, my statement was, “…murders among family are rare compared to instances of street crime”. I was right. He wasn’t. And neither are you. Now, is there anything else I’ve said that you’d like me to repeat or clarify since you’re evidently so challenged in the ability to correctly comprehend what I’ve already stated in black & white? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/405 "2018-03-22T11:00:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I didn’t say family homicides are rare compared to other homicides. I said they’re rare compared to instances of street crimes. Which they are. Family _homicides_ are rare compared to street _crimes_. I’m sure that’s true. In fact, I bet _homicides_ are rare compared to street crimes. Don’t even need the ‘family’ qualifier. Not sure that proves anything either way, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/406 "2018-03-22T12:05:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Family _homicides_ are rare compared to street _crimes_. > > I’m sure that’s true. In fact, I bet _homicides_ are rare compared to street crimes. Don’t even need the ‘family’ qualifier. > > Not sure that proves anything either way, though. It does not. He was attempting the same “legerdemain” that he himself complained about in regards to another poster. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/407 "2018-03-22T14:19:24Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Prosecutors and judges have perverted the meaning of premeditation and criminal intent to include all sorts of things most people don’t think of when they hear the terms. :dubious: ISTM that if you use a term with well-established legal significance, you don’t get to blame “prosecutors and judges” for having “perverted” it because that well-established legal significance means something different from what you’d like the term to mean. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve seen it argued that the very act of reaching for a gun prior to shooting someone is clear evidence of premeditation and criminal intent. I don’t see what you consider objectionable in such an argument. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > So what? And neither do you, apparently. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve never once heard of anyone desiring to own guns so as to protect themselves or their families from random unknown people who have shot family members and then headed out in search of someone else to shoot. So, again, you’re trying to argue that shooting family members doesn’t really “count” as far as the dangers of guns to society are concerned, because it doesn’t usually turn the shooter into an indiscriminate predator upon the general public? > [@Starving Artist](#): > > In terms of the reasons why people want to own guns for self-defense, yes, they do. So do rapes, robberies, home intrusions, shootings in places of business, etc. But you’re trying to argue that the reasons people **want** to own guns for self-defense (i.e., to protect themselves against criminal predators) should be assessed separately from a significant component of the way such guns actually get **used** (i.e., in domestic violence and accidents). That’s not an honest argument. Even if somebody buys a gun solely with the intention of protecting himself from criminals, if he then gets angry and shoots his wife in an unexpected domestic dispute, it’s appropriate for society to take that outcome into account when considering what restrictions ought to be placed on people owning guns. Criminal acts of gun violence committed by gun owners are still part of the negative consequences of gun ownership, even if the gun owner didn’t plan to commit such acts when originally acquiring the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/408 "2018-03-22T15:26:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Criminal acts of gun violence committed by gun owners are still part of the negative consequences of gun ownership, even if the gun owner didn’t plan to commit such acts when originally acquiring the gun. Or indeed if those acts aren’t committed by the gun owner him- or herself, despite still being nothing more than “family issues”: > **[A 9-year-old boy shot his older sister to death over a video game controller,...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/19/us/boy-shot-sister-over-video-game-trnd/index.html)** > > The incident occurred over the weekend in Monroe County, Mississippi, as the children’s mother was preparing lunch in the kitchen, the country sheriff said. It seems to me that many gun owners focus almost exclusively on risks to themselves, while also making two fundamental errors: 1) dramatically overestimating the risks from the environment (esp. brown people); and 2) removing themselves entirely from particular categories of risk (e.g., accidents and human frailties). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/409 "2018-03-22T18:43:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And because I can’t imagine anyone taking seriously a pro-gun argument that guns are needed in order for citizens to protect oneself from family members. :smack: 😉 “I took my kids and fled from my abusive husband, and I’m worried he’s going to find us and kill us, as he’s threatened to do in the past. So I bought a gun to protect us.” That seems like an argument that people would take seriously. Both individually, and as a general reason pro-gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/410 "2018-03-22T21:54:37Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > “I took my kids and fled from my abusive husband, and I’m worried he’s going to find us and kill us, as he’s threatened to do in the past. So I bought a gun to protect us.” > > That seems like an argument that people would take seriously. Both individually, and as a general reason pro-gun ownership. Yeah, but compared to _street crime_, that never ever ever happens. Also, back in the 1950s, women knew how to take a punch. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/411 "2018-03-22T22:22:10Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > “I took my kids and fled from my abusive husband, and I’m worried he’s going to find us and kill us, as he’s threatened to do in the past. So I bought a gun to protect us.” > > That seems like an argument that people would take seriously. Both individually, and as a general reason pro-gun ownership. Somehow I don’t think pro-gun advocates would accomplish much by stressing that without guns people wouldn’t be able to defend themselves from family members. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/412 "2018-03-23T00:28:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Somehow I don’t think pro-gun advocates would accomplish much by stressing that without guns people wouldn’t be able to defend themselves from family members. Maybe not, but that’s not a valid reason for excluding domestic gun crimes from discussions of gun control measures. Just because most people who commit domestic gun crimes may not be professional criminal predators and may not have intended to commit any crimes when they acquired the gun doesn’t mean that their emotionally-impelled gun violence isn’t a serious problem. And pro-gun advocates should not get away with trying to dismiss or exclude this problem from gun-control debates just because it’s not rhetorically advantageous for them. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/413 "2018-03-23T02:41:15Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > “I took my kids and fled from my abusive husband, and I’m worried he’s going to find us and kill us, as he’s threatened to do in the past. So I bought a gun to protect us.” > > That seems like an argument that people would take seriously. Both individually, and as a general reason pro-gun ownership. I would argue that gun control would make it harder for the husband to get a gun, and hence much less likely that he will actually be able to kill them. Not 0%, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/414 "2018-03-23T18:36:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Somehow I don’t think pro-gun advocates would accomplish much by stressing that without guns people wouldn’t be able to defend themselves from family members. Honestly, I’m very surprised. Domestic abuse is something that I would guess everyone (apart from abusers) condemns. I don’t think there would be much sympathy for a person shot in self-defense when trying to seriously harm their spouse or children or other family members. I’m really very curious about this; do you think your viewpoint would be shared by a majority of pro-gun advocates? What about the nature of domestic abuse do you feel makes it not compelling as an argument for pro-gun people? > [@Folacin](#): > > I would argue that gun control would make it harder for the husband to get a gun, and hence much less likely that he will actually be able to kill them. Not 0%, of course. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not actually advancing the argument. I just think it’s one that I can imagine pro-gun advocates taking seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/415 "2018-03-23T18:57:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve never once heard of anyone desiring to own guns so as to protect themselves or their families from random unknown people who have shot family members and then headed out in search of someone else to shoot. Have you? [Charles Whitman?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman) He murdered family members (with a knife) before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. [Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Starkweather) They killed Fugate’s family before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. [Jeff Weise?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Weise) He murdered two family members before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/416 "2018-03-23T19:02:12Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m really very curious about this; do you think your viewpoint would be shared by a majority of pro-gun advocates? What about the nature of domestic abuse do you feel makes it not compelling as an argument for pro-gun people? I’m just glad I’m not married to **SA**. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/417 "2018-03-23T19:10:58Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Honestly, I’m very surprised. It’s very simple. People want guns in order to protect themselves and their families from home intrusions, robberies, rape, carjackings, killings, etc. They are not remotely willing to give up that protection and expose themselves and their loved ones to these dangers in order to keep someone they never heard of and never will from possibly being killed with a gun by someone in their family. People look out for their own first and that’s how it should be. It’s regrettable that some people get killed by family members, but that doesn’t override people’s quite proper desire to defend themselves and their own family members from criminal attack. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/418 "2018-03-23T19:12:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s very simple. People want guns in order to protect themselves and their families from home intrusions, robberies, rape, carjackings, killings, etc. They are not remotely willing to give up that protection and expose themselves and their loved ones to these dangers in order to keep someone they never heard of and never will from possibly being killed with a gun by someone in their family. > > People look out for their own first and that’s how it should be. It’s regrettable that some people get killed by family members, but that doesn’t override people’s quite proper desire to defend themselves and their own family members from criminal attack. I’m a bad parent I guess. I don’t have a gun to protect members of my family from criminal attack. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/419 "2018-03-23T19:29:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Charles Whitman?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman) He murdered family members (with a knife) before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. > > [Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Starkweather) They killed Fugate’s family before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. > > [Jeff Weise?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Weise) He murdered two family members before heading out in search of strangers to shoot. Don’t forget [Adam Lanza](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting) who shot his mother, and then went out to find some elementary students to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843/420 "2018-03-23T19:41:14Z")
Or [Ronald Gene Simmons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Gene_Simmons). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting-stoneman-douglas-2-14-2018/808843.md?page=22)