# Another school shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735 "2003-04-14T21:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/121 "2003-04-17T21:24:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*So World Eater… You’re pretty much saying, ban all semi-automatic firearms, \*\* I was. \*\* > [@](#): > > because it might, possibly, reduce the chances of a criminal getting one? \*\* So I thought. \*\* > [@](#): > > So, because it _might_ reduce the number of firearms in criminal possession (Which is a far cry from reducing deaths by firearms! You have to include the fact that there will be almost _no_ legal defensive firearm use), it’s justified to make it impossible for _anyone_ to legally own those firearms. > \*\* Yeah, it doesn’t really add up the way I thought it might. \*\* > [@](#): > > What is the reasoning behind this need? Is it just fear? Sure, “assault weapons” are scary to people who don’t know a thing about guns. \*\* Well I’ll tell you how I look at it. I grew up in Bed Stuy Brooklyn, and it it has seen it’s share of good times and bad times. Guns were a fact of life growing up, and trust me, they weren’t used for shooting street rabbits. I’ve known people that have died over some pretty stupid things, and it was usually a gun that was dishing out the justice. I myself have had the pleasure of having Glocks and such pushed up in my face, shot at, and threatened with death several times. Now I am not a drug dealer, I’m not some street thug, I’m just an average schmuck who grew up in a bit of a crappy neighborhood. To be honest I never really thought that guns had any good uses. I just see them as tools of thugs, and of cowards who would be unable to carry out their business without one. When you see them as I saw them, and what they do to ruin lives up close and personally, you might be calling for their banning as well. Now, with that said, I’m well aware that this is the exception and not the norm. and that banning them wouldn’t do more then redistribute some statistics. \*\* > [@](#): > > They also, as have been pointed out several times, are among the least-used weapons in crime. \*\* Sure, but putting a dent in the 4th highest method of homicide would be nice as well. (figures pulled out of my ass) Anyway banning them won’t solve anything, let’s move on. \*\* > [@](#): > > Or are you just trying to exploit a school shooting (More like gang retribution…)\*\* A person was murdered, and what started out as a knee jerk thread became very educational. No exploitation from my POV. \*\* > [@](#): > > to try and short-circuit logic with the appeal to emotion of “our children are in danger!” \*\* Sometimes some emotion is a good thing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Schools are already pretty safe places. Banning all semi-automatic firearms is not going to make them any safer. \*\* Well we better figure something out, they’re not safe enough. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/122 "2003-04-17T21:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **I was.** Does this mean you don’t any more? Then what is your stance? > [@](#): > > **I just see them as tools of thugs, and of cowards who would be unable to carry out their business without one. When you see them as I saw them, and what they do to ruin lives up close and personally, you might be calling for their banning as well.** Bullshit. And pretty fucking presumptuous. Just because someone isn’t for banning guns doesn’t mean they’re naive and don’t know of the results of gun violence. But you, you’re taking a self-described _narrow_ viewpoint, where you’re “just” seeing them in only one of their possible uses, and using that one use, disregarding the others, as the basis for your argument. > [@](#): > > **Sometimes some emotion is a good thing.** And using emotion to usurp rational thinking has repeatedly done harm, instead of good. Zero-tolerance policies, for example. > [@](#): > > \*\*Well we better figure something out, they’re not safe enough. \*\* Youth crimes have been going down steadily. Deaths in schools have been going down steadily. IIRC, a teen is much _less_ likely to get killed in school than than out of it (Even accounting for the proportion of time spent in school and out). So in your opinion, just what _would_ be safe enough? ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/123 "2003-04-17T23:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **Sometimes some emotion is a good thing.** Okay, I mostly let this one slide, but I’m really curious. Just what _exactly_ do you mean by this? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/124 "2003-04-18T02:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*\*Originally posted by World Eater \* > Sure, but putting a dent in the 4th highest method of homicide would be nice as well. (figures pulled out of my ass) Anyway banning them won’t solve anything, let’s move on. \*\* You shouldn’t pull figures out of your ass. If they’re used in a fraction of a fraction of gun crime, then if you’re breaking up homicide by weapon type, I can pretty much garuntee you they’re nowhere near 4th. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Sometimes some emotion is a good thing. \*\* Not when it’s an appeal to someone’s emotion with the goal of overriding their rational thoughts with pure emotion. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/125 "2003-04-18T02:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **Tony Montana** said: > Since the Clinton import ban theyr’e hard to find (OTC). I see them at nearly every gun show and gun store I go to, and not typically one or two. I got mine at a gun show a couple of years ago from a private owner, in fact. > [@](#): > > **World Eater** said: > Perhaps the price will go up, which may make it harder to buy one, keeping it out of some hands. Yeah, it probably would, but not the hands you’re thinking of. It would’ve been my hands when I was a poor 21 year-old college student who lived alone and bought a gun simply because I wanted one. Less than a year later when a crackhead in a rage broke into my apartment at around 2:30 a.m. the fact that a Ruger P95DC semi-automatic 9mm pistol was mass produced and inexpensive may have saved my life. You would’ve kept that gun out of my hands and left me in that apartment alone with the raging crackhead while I attempted to dial 911 and prayed the police got there. Thanks. > [@](#): > > I’ve known people that have died over some pretty stupid things, and it was usually a gun that was dishing out the justice. Correction. It was usually **some person** with a gun dishing out the justice. A gun cannot go and hunt someone down and shoot them on its own. Why do you insist on attributing the crimes of men to the objects that had no choice? ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Montana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@Tony\_Montana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Montana)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/126 "2003-04-18T03:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I see them at nearly every gun show and gun store I go to, and not typically one or two. I got mine at a gun show a couple of years ago from a private owner, in fact. Hmm, I really need to get to the lower 48 (or as my bestest friend calls it \* “down in America”\* ) more often… Side note: When I went to a gun show in San Rafael, CA in 2001 I couldn’t get _anything_ for mine (as far as magazine’s etc) much less see one. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/127 "2003-04-18T04:44:20Z")
I live in PA. And if it exists in the realm of firearms, they’ve probably got at least 2 at any PAGCS (Pennsylvania Gun Collectors Show). ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/128 "2003-04-18T12:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Side note: When I went to a gun show in San Rafael, CA in 2001 I couldn’t get anything for mine (as far as magazine’s etc) much less see one. That’s cuz they’re BANNED in CA, **Tony**. Johnny LA was ragin’ about this last year or the year before, he’s shipped his out of state for safe keeping with a friend until he moves. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/129 "2003-04-18T13:39:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > **Does this mean you don’t any more? Then what is your stance?** You must have missed… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Yes, I’ll agree, well put. I appreciate that the time you’ve taken to compose your posts, **Doc** , they’ve been very informative. Perhaps I’ll take some time and revisit my feelings on the subject. \*\* And then… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **I don’t want to appear like I’m abandoning the thread, as I see a few responses that I haven’t answered, but to be honest my positions have changed. Once I figure them out, I’ll be in a better position to defend them.** Got it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*Bullshit. And pretty fucking presumptuous. Just because someone isn’t for banning guns doesn’t mean they’re naive and don’t know of the results of gun violence. But you, you’re taking a self-described _narrow_ viewpoint, where you’re “just” seeing them in only one of their possible uses, and using that one use, disregarding the others, as the basis for your argument. \*\* Should I just agree with everything you say here? Oh wait I do look… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **Now, with that said, I’m well aware that this is the exception and not the norm. and that banning them wouldn’t do more then redistribute some statistics.** Moving on… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*And using emotion to usurp rational thinking has repeatedly done harm, instead of good. Zero-tolerance policies, for example. \*\* Let’s replace emotion with passion, which seems a little more restrained. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\*Youth crimes have been going down steadily. Deaths in schools have been going down steadily. IIRC, a teen is much _less_ likely to get killed in school than than out of it (Even accounting for the proportion of time spent in school and out). So in your opinion, just what _would_ be safe enough? \*\* Plastic bubble wrap, and mittens on their hands. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/130 "2003-04-18T13:42:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > **You would’ve kept that gun out of my hands and left me in that apartment alone with the raging crackhead while I attempted to dial 911 and prayed the police got there. Thanks.** :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/131 "2003-04-18T13:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > **You shouldn’t pull figures out of your ass. If they’re used in a fraction of a fraction of gun crime, then if you’re breaking up homicide by weapon type, I can pretty much garuntee you they’re nowhere near 4th.** Who cares? If it makes you feel better, make it the 13th or the 21st, my point still stands. \*\* > [@](#): > > Not when it’s an appeal to someone’s emotion with the goal of overriding their rational thoughts with pure emotion. \*\* Yes that is usually a given. Now who else wants to play in our game of _semantical nitpickage of positions we no longer hold?_ ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/132 "2003-04-18T15:04:33Z")
Well, **World Eater** , your position that semi-automatics should be banned or so expensive that poor people couldn’t have them would have left me without a means of defense when that criminal broke into my apartment. You can roll your eyes all you want, but your idea of reducing supply until the price skyrockets so that ‘poor people’ can’t afford guns would do exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/133 "2003-04-18T16:39:52Z")
Am I missing something here? Hasn’t **World Eater** stated that his position has changed as a result of this thread? And that he’s re-thinking his outlook re firearms? Or did I get whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/134 "2003-04-18T17:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*Am I missing something here? Hasn’t **World Eater** stated that his position has changed as a result of this thread? And that he’s re-thinking his outlook re firearms? Or did I get whooshed? \*\* No you didn’t, in fact the only wooshing you hear is the wind blowing through some of the heads of the people in this thread. Perhaps this will help… **I NO LONGER ADVOCATE BANNING FIREARMS!!!** ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/135 "2003-04-18T17:35:26Z")
Well, if you say so… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MannyL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MannyL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MannyL)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/136 "2003-04-18T20:18:45Z")
Not to hijack the thread but this is a good reason why we should be able to edit posts. World Eater should be able to add a message to his OP that says his views have changed and he no longer feels this way, or at least a MOD should do that for him ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/137 "2003-04-19T20:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*You must have missed… > > And then… > > Got it?\*\* Ah, yes, now I get it. You make a vague comment about rethinking your views and changing your possition, and I’m supposed to do a nice mind-reading and see what that new possition is. So how about can the attitude and _answer the question_ instead of making people guess what you’re thinking? > [@](#): > > **Should I just agree with everything you say here? Oh wait I do look…** Oh, nice. My main complain there wasn’t about banning or not banning firearms, but you being down-right presumptuous by assuming people who weren’t sharing your viewpoint of guns being only used by bad-guys (To roughly paraphrase your statement that started it all) must have not ever seen the results of gun violence, or had it happen to them. > [@](#): > > \*\*Plastic bubble wrap, and mittens on their hands. \*\* Cute. Now are you going to be serious and answer the question, or were you unable to come up with an answer and decided to give a “witty” remark to dodge it? And I’m _still_ waiting on an answer as to what you meant by this: > [@](#): > > **Sometimes some emotion is a good thing.** …Because it’s _really_ easy to read that as a pretty offensive statement, in context… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735/138 "2003-04-20T00:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Who cares? If it makes you feel better, make it the 13th or the 21st, my point still stands. \*\* What point is that? “If it would save one life, we should handcuff everyone at all times”? > [@](#): > > \*\* > \*\* > > Yes that is usually a given. > Now who else wants to play in our game of _semantical nitpickage of positions we no longer hold?_ \*\* Well, you didn’t seem to retract or explain that statement, so it was still fair game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-school-shooting/168735.md?page=6)