# Another "screaming kids in a restaurant" thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125 "2012-04-07T22:22:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/181 "2012-04-13T17:34:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And yet, there’s been times when a kid tossed a toy on the floor, I picked it up and didn’t have time to hand it to their mother before she started yelling at me and grabbing for the toy - ok, ok, lady, I promise I wasn’t going to _lick it_! And thats when you make a hail mary pass towards the end zone with the toy 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/182 "2012-04-13T17:48:06Z")
I think kids and parents are pretty much identical now to how they were when I was a kid. People are people. There are the entitled ones and the humble ones, the ones who try to cope and the ones who just throw up their hands or get snotty. I wasn’t anything approaching a perfect kid, nor are my nieces and nephews. In restaurants, I’ve been seated next to good kids and bad kids and the bad kids are just as often the ones in my party as they are in someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/183 "2012-04-13T20:52:17Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yes. Well, I’m telling you what I have personally witnessed, and you are of course free to wave it away as selective delusion or intentional bias if you feel that better supports your own pet theory. Don’t go feeling special about it though. He/she has been doing it to quite a few people in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/184 "2012-04-13T21:02:35Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think it’s exactly the opposite. I think women are less secure around other women, and feel defensive. Hm… good point. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/185 "2012-04-13T23:23:51Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Yes. Well, I’m telling you what I have personally witnessed, and you are of course free to wave it away as selective delusion or intentional bias if you feel that better supports your own pet theory. I don’t think you understand what “confirmation bias” means. It does not mean “selective delusion or intentional bias”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/186 "2012-04-13T23:25:55Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Don’t go feeling special about it though. He/she has been doing it to quite a few people in the thread. Same comment. If you think an argument about “confirmation bias” is an accusation of “selective delusion or intentional bias”, you are simply not aware of what the argument is about. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/187 "2012-04-14T02:03:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline. > > This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization. > > Every single generation appears to believe that when _they_ were kids, things were different - and better. Parents were more responsible. They cared about discipline. Not like todays’ clueless, lazy, irresponsible parents, and wild, undisciplined hellion children. Ah yes, that Hesiod quote. I remember that one from back in my post-graduate days in sociology. I had to totally re-write a thesis devoted to an analysis of child-rearing norms throughout history. My supervising prof said that I had spent far too much time devoted to examining all of the manifest changes in human society over the last six millennia and considering how they might influence said norms. “No, no, no - you’ve got it all wrong,” he said. “What you have completely failed to consider is that a Greek philosopher who died 2700 years ago has already scientifically established the immutability of human behavior.” I took his criticism pretty hard and felt rather despondent over the whole thing. He suggested I might have an excess of black bile in my system and offered to tap my gall bladder to balance things out. I foolishly demurred. ☹ Wise man, that prof. Disclaimer: I did not really do any post-graduate work in sociology. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/188 "2012-04-14T02:13:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Oh the kids these days. They do not respect their elders. They run wild. Not like when I was growing up. Then we had real discipline. > > This complaint is, literally, as old as literate civilization. … Sure, but the Nazis made the kids straighten up and fly right with the Hitler Youth. Just look at the Pope. You think it’s a _coincidence_ he was in it? Ah, if only the Boy Scouts were allowed to hold executions… A man can dream, can’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/189 "2012-04-14T02:35:01Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > To be clear, my friend didn’t ask the parents to shut that fucking baby up. He said to me, “I wish someone would shut that fucking baby up.” He didn’t say it to the room, or loudly enough that the offending parents should have even heard him. I agree that that would have been rude of him. They overheard him, accidentally… but fortunately. Who wants to eat with an infant screaming in their ear? Not me. What are the odds that he would have been “accidentally” overheard if he was 5 foot 6 instead of 6 foot 5? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/190 "2012-04-14T10:19:14Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Perhaps it’s not the children who are different now, but the adults. That is, there are more parents who ignore their kids’ acting out and more adults willing to make excuses for both the parents and kids. > > As a good example of parenting I look to my own brother’s family. I have a four-year-old nephew who’s as spirited and rambunctious as any kid his age. In public places he sometimes gets bored, moody, etc., like any kid would. They don’t take him to “fancy” restaurants while he’s in this phase, and if we go to a more kid-friendly pizza or wing place and he begins whining or kicking the booth they’ll address it immediately and tell him to behave. If he keeps it up, they take him outside for a one-on-one “you need to cut it out, now” talk. That usually does it; if he still persists, it’s time to pay the check and go home. Sucks to do so, I’m sure, but that’s part of the price of parenthood. > > They aren’t authoritarian or mean about it, nor are they asking too much of a child his age. They’re doing what they’re supposed to do as parents socializing a child, and they do it with love, and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate seeing it while other parents’ brats are left to run amok with impunity. At home, in the backyard, etc., he can play and scream to his heart’s content, but he’s being taught (whether he likes it or not) that when you’re in a public place like a restaurant, you’re supposed to behave. It’s frightening to think how many kids \*aren’t \*being taught that simple lesson, and what we may all be in for in a few years. I think that this is the basic problem, not that kids have changed, but parenting styles have changed. Many people now believe that they can offer toddlers choices in every behavior. Sure, it’s OK to ask your 3 year old if she wants to wear the pink or purple top today, when it really doesn’t matter which one she wears. It’s not a good idea to ask that same 3 year old if she’s ready to leave the playground yet, when YOU know that you need to get going now if you want to be on time to that next appointment. She’s going to say that she wants to play some more, you’re going to keep asking her the same question and getting the same answer, and both of you will be frustrated. Instead, it’s better to give the child limited choices, but as a parent, YOU decide the important things…like behavior in public, and when it’s time to leave. The thing is, when parents give these choices, they feel like they are doing the right thing, and if they can only reason well enough with the child, s/he’ll be reasonable and see things the parent’s way. But kids aren’t reasonable, for the most part, and they want to do whatever is the most fun NOW, and never mind the consequences later. Hell, some so-called adults haven’t mastered the concept of delayed gratification. Which brings us to another point. Teaching the kids proper behavior isn’t something that’s easy. It’s damned hard. And a lot of people aren’t willing to put in that much effort. It’s easier to let the kid run around the restaurant, getting in everyone else’s way, and play with the condiment bottles than to keep an eye on the kid and make sure that she stays seated and relatively quiet. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/191 "2012-04-14T12:18:23Z")
It’s easy to give a meaningful (to a 3 year old) choice about when to leave, too. You just have to remember to do it earlier. If you need to leave at 3:00, you start the process at 2:45. “Honey, do you want to leave now, or in 15 minutes?” Of course the kid will say 15 minutes. So then she gets a 10 minute warning that is NOT phrased the the form of a choice: “Just letting you know, 10 more minutes!” And a 5, “We get to stay for 5 more minutes, wheeee!” and a 2, which may include a small choice: “Only 2 minutes left - slide or swings?” And then you leave at 3:00, just like you planned to all along. Not all kids need such a production, of course, but the ones who have trouble with control and transitions really benefit from it. And that does seem to be most kids. Because, really - when you leave a party, do you decide to do it and grab your coat? Of course not. You contemplate leaving, you check in with your spouse about leaving in 10 or 20 minutes, you make your rounds and say goodbye, you use the bathroom one last time…very few of us, at any age, don’t need some sort of planning to mentally and physically switch activities. So why not assume small people need the same space to transition, and teach them how to do it? But yes, your point is spot on. “Choices” is a great parenting strategy, but you never EVER offer a choice that’s not okay with you. Never. That will be the choice they choose. They don’t have fully functioning frontal lobes in their brain. You’ve got to be their filter for many years, and filter out the ridiculous, impractical and dangerous options for them by just not mentioning them! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/192 "2012-04-14T17:15:19Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Ah yes, that Hesiod quote. I remember that one from back in my post-graduate days in sociology. I had to totally re-write a thesis devoted to an analysis of child-rearing norms throughout history. My supervising prof said that I had spent far too much time devoted to examining all of the manifest changes in human society over the last six millennia and considering how they might influence said norms. “No, no, no - you’ve got it all wrong,” he said. “What you have completely failed to consider is that a Greek philosopher who died 2700 years ago has already scientifically established the immutability of human behavior.” > > I took his criticism pretty hard and felt rather despondent over the whole thing. He suggested I might have an excess of black bile in my system and offered to tap my gall bladder to balance things out. I foolishly demurred. ☹ > > Wise man, that prof. > > Disclaimer: I did not really do any post-graduate work in sociology. Well, you where quite right to not bother with any post-graduate work in sociology - why bother with all that “science” stuff when, as many in this thread will tell you, a few choice anecdotes clearly demonstrates important and universal contemporary trends? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/193 "2012-04-14T17:49:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Well, you where quite right to not bother with any post-graduate work in sociology - why bother with all that “science” stuff when, as many in this thread will tell you, a few choice anecdotes clearly demonstrates important and universal contemporary trends? Who needs anecdotes when the _real_ ace-in-the-hole is an impressive-sounding term like “confirmation bias”? “You’ve had kids thump on your back? I never have! _Confirmation bias_!” “You don’t like screaming kids? Teenagers and old people are annoying too! _Confirmation bias_!” “You think you can tell the difference between parents letting their kids run wild and parents making an effort? _Confirmation bias_! What, you’ve seen your brother and his wife doing a good job parenting their son and think they’d never for a moment allow him to terrorize a restaurant? _Doubleplus confirmation bias_!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/194 "2012-04-14T19:32:05Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > What we need here is someone who has been around to see two generations of children as an adult. I am thinking over 70 should do it. And it would be ideal if they were childless. You rang? I’m not quite over 70, but close – I’m 66. And childless. So that means I was a toddler myself more than 60 years ago, and I do remember going out to eat, being a bit bratty and being quickly reined in. I also remember an episode when I was in my twenties, at a restaurant with a friend and her brother and sister-in-law and their young child. He was probably around 2 or 3, old enough to be mobile, not old enough to be civilized. My friend and I both got pretty peeved and embarrassed that the parents didn’t seem to be doing much to control the kid. So it’s definitely not a modern phenomenon. Some parents are better than others at keeping their kids in check, some kids need a firmer hand than others. By the way, while I’m strolling down memory lane (slowly but without a cane or walker yet), I’ll mention that I remember babysitting (for 50 cents an hour) when I was about 12. I also remember that back then not only did kids ride without seatbelts, but so did grownups – because cars didn’t even have seatbelts back then. Times have changed and attitudes have changed. I think seatbelts are a good thing, but I would not characterize parents in earlier times of being uncaring about their children just because they operated by the standards of their times. ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/195 "2012-04-15T03:22:23Z")
You guys are going to laugh at me and I know it’s not the same as what y’all are talking about, but I have to tell you this story. A few weeks after I got my dog (she was about a year old, Blue Tick Coon Hound) I took her to obedience class. There was one particular day when _she just wouldn’t listen_. She wouldn’t stop barking (she rarely barks) and pulling and screwing around and I was SO EMBARRASSED. I was freakin’ mortified at her behaviour. As we were driving home I had to actually pull over into a park and I just sat and cried in frustration. All I could think was: **“This is how parents feel when their child acts up in public.”** At that moment I was so grateful that I’m never having kids, I couldn’t imagine having that frustrated/helpless/everybody-thinks-I-suck-as-a-parent feeling on a regular basis. I will never, ever judge a parent whose child is acting up in public again! (We got home and my dog went straight to the kitchen and had a massive drink of water. I couldn’t believe it - she was simply thirsty. I felt like an even worse parent when I realized the problem, LOL.) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/196 "2012-04-15T04:08:11Z")
These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants. Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises. Remember, folks, eat local. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/197 "2012-04-15T13:08:38Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants. > > Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises. > > Remember, folks, eat local. Took me a moment. Clever! ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/198 "2012-04-15T13:15:07Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > These days, the most commonly served food is burgers that are mass produced and distributed to the restaurants. > > Fortunately, there is a move to locally produced food. As this catches on, I predict that the number of ill behaved children running about and screaming in restaurants will be inversely proportional to the number of restaurants that grind their meat on the premises. > > Remember, folks, eat local. Soylent Green burgers. **Soylent Juicy** would pick that up 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/199 "2012-04-15T14:02:13Z")
It may be the percentage of bad parents today is the same it has always been. And it may be the percentage of kids that are naturally bad or hard to control is the same it has always been. However, I do get the impression that over the past handful of decades one thing has changed. Adults other than parents are no longer “allowed” to set the kid straight if the parents won’t. If thats true it certainly can’t be helping on the “screaming kids” war. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125/200 "2012-04-15T15:18:42Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > You DO fucking choose to grow old. It’s pretty much exactly the same as choosing to have kids. > > Responsible people kill themselves before they ever burden the all-important Middle Aged. If you choose to continue living after 55 (60 at the latest) you deserve all the abuse you get, as a disgusting old person. Yuck! I mean, damn, at least kids will grow out of it and become productive members of society; old people are completely used up. They should either shut themselves up somewhere where no one has to see/smell them, or die. It’s the only polite way. Oh, yeah? Well, then, miss smarty pants, tell me this: Who will keep the lawns safe??? And besides, you need to be more polite, or else you’ll never be\*\* _mrs_. elizabeth!\*\* I’m a charmer, ain’t I?😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-screaming-kids-in-a-restaurant-thread/618125.md?page=11)