# Another study showing vaccines dont cause autism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969 "2008-09-04T11:37:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/1 "2008-09-04T11:37:35Z")
While I have great heartfelt sympathy for the loved ones of people with autism, here’s only the [latest](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=atNr2PAMdNGk&refer=home) study to help confirm what most scientists have shown to be the case–mmr vaccine **doesn’t** raise a kid’s likelihood of developing autism. I put this in GD as it usually draws out heated comments on both sides of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/2 "2008-09-04T11:44:16Z")
If only science and studies were going to make a difference on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/3 "2008-09-04T12:23:47Z")
If people didn’t use proper casual logic to concoct their pet hypothesis then using proper casual logic won’t help them get rid of it, either. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/4 "2008-09-04T12:29:08Z")
Sadly I already seen this posted on another board. And the AV crowd used the best smoke and mirrors the chelation and homeopathic money grubbers could buy to distort the facts. There should be no debate on autism/vaccines, I was convinced a long time ago and even more convinced when I seen the rates in I believe Denmark between vaccinated and no-vaccinated children had statistically the same rate of autism. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/5 "2008-09-04T15:43:15Z")
The studies don’t matter to people who want to believe this. Nor do facts like that Japan [discontinued the MRR](http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html) (the original vaccine boogeyman) over a decade ago and the autism rate is still rose there. It’s convienent to believe vaccines cause autism, because then it’s not your fault, like it might be if there’s ever a strong link proven between autism and an environmental cause (such as the studies that are looking into - though have not proven, of course - a link between TV viewing before age 3 and autism) that you might have contributed to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/6 "2008-09-04T16:02:29Z")
In other news, the Center For Figuring Out Really Obvious Things also announced today that the Earth is more or less spherical, that the Pope “is in all probability Catholic,” and that eating fourteen Double Whoppers a day without exercising will likely result in weight gain. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/7 "2008-09-04T16:17:40Z")
Did anyone else read the article about a possible link between autism and vitamin D deficiency? I can’t find it now (did I dream it?) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/8 "2008-09-04T16:22:58Z")
Sorry for intruding politics into one of the few apolitical threads but … Unfortunately things that are Really Obvious are still not obvious to either candidate who are [both](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/04/dr_obama_and_dr_mccain.html) either idiots or panderers. Yes, both. McCain went first but Obama with less fanfare is also on record being an idiotic ass. Sure, less of an idiot than McCain who states that “there’s strong evidence that indicates it’s got to do with a preservative in vaccines” but what a low bar. Obama says the nearly as outrageous “The science right now is inconclusive …” Disappointing. Really. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/9 "2008-09-04T16:24:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > The studies don’t matter to people who want to believe this. Nor do facts like that Japan [discontinued the MRR](http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html) (the original vaccine boogeyman) over a decade ago and the autism rate is still rose there. It’s convienent to believe vaccines cause autism, because then it’s not your fault, like it might be if there’s ever a strong link proven between autism and an environmental cause (such as the studies that are looking into - though have not proven, of course - a link between TV viewing before age 3 and autism) that you might have contributed to yourself. Since Jaelyn did watch some TV I cannot rule out that link, but more interesting in our particular case is ultrasounds. Since she did have extra time due to a cyst and the OB/GYN watching to see if she would clench her fist to rule out some disease or something (I can’t remember the exact reason sorry) What pisses me off, is funding vaccine/autism links studies, enough is enough it is time to put the money into other possible links since this one has been done to death. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/10 "2008-09-04T16:26:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Sorry for intruding politics into one of the few apolitical threads but … > > Unfortunately things that are Really Obvious are still not obvious to either candidate who are [both](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/04/dr_obama_and_dr_mccain.html) either idiots or panderers. Yes, both. McCain went first but Obama with less fanfare is also on record being an idiotic ass. Sure, less of an idiot than McCain who states that “there’s strong evidence that indicates it’s got to do with a preservative in vaccines” but what a low bar. Obama says the nearly as outrageous “The science right now is inconclusive …” Disappointing. Really. I cringed when seeing this, set people like me up for another wave of antivaxxors over running us on another forum. That sucked, I emailed both campaigns but didn’t get a response from either on those comments. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/11 "2008-09-04T17:22:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Sorry for intruding politics into one of the few apolitical threads but … > > Unfortunately things that are Really Obvious are still not obvious to either candidate who are [both](http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/04/dr_obama_and_dr_mccain.html) either idiots or panderers. Also overripe for criticism are all the panderers in the news and entertainment media (including such worthies as Larry King and Oprah) who jump to exploit the “controversy” by putting clueless celebs like Jenny McCarthy on their programs to spout nonsense, and reporters who put “balance” in their stories on the subject by “presenting both sides” (i.e., one spokesman for the scientific community to represent the overwhelming consensus against a vaccine-autism link, with equal time given to some antivax loon who has a graduate degree in Google). Anyone noticed that since blaming thimerosal for autism has become increasingly ludicrous (thimerosal preservative has been out of routine childhood vaccines for years, with no change in autism incidence trends), antivaxers have been trying to shift blame to other “toxins” in vaccines (i.e. the [“Green Our Vaccines”](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=4987758) movement)? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/12 "2008-09-04T18:56:16Z")
Scary stories sell. You will find TV news jumping all over the stories with no real reporting. The days of real reporting are over. The breast implant scare a few years ago almost broke Dow and had women cutting implants out in terror. It was not true but it brought viewers. TV News would make you think there are lines of perverts waiting to kidnap your kid. Tooth filling will kill you slowly ,you know. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/13 "2008-09-04T18:58:57Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Also overripe for criticism are all the panderers in the news and entertainment media (including such worthies as Larry King and Oprah) who jump to exploit the “controversy” by putting clueless celebs like Jenny McCarthy on their programs to spout nonsense, and reporters who put “balance” in their stories on the subject by “presenting both sides” (i.e., one spokesman for the scientific community to represent the overwhelming consensus against a vaccine-autism link, with equal time given to some antivax loon who has a graduate degree in Google). > > Anyone noticed that since blaming thimerosal for autism has become increasingly ludicrous (thimerosal preservative has been out of routine childhood vaccines for years, with no change in autism incidence trends), antivaxers have been trying to shift blame to other “toxins” in vaccines (i.e. the [“Green Our Vaccines”](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=4987758) movement)? Yeah they jumped to the MMR after the thimerosal didn’t pan out and many are moving on to aluminum and other things in vaccines. By time we waste millions on research dollars on dispelling the myths we may have some left to help our children. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/14 "2008-09-04T19:50:12Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > Yeah they jumped to the MMR after the thimerosal didn’t pan out… My recollection is that the MMR hysteria in the UK, and thimerosal hysteria in the US occurred pretty much simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/15 "2008-09-04T22:48:31Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > My recollection is that the MMR hysteria in the UK, and thimerosal hysteria in the US occurred pretty much simultaneously. ``` Now mind you I didn't pay as much attention prior to my daughters diagnosis. So I could be mixed up in my mind. Though reading some news groups do seem to agree with you, and me. But I need a better news reader to get more in depth. :( cheap thing! ``` ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/16 "2008-09-04T23:09:57Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If people didn’t use proper casual logic to concoct their pet hypothesis then using proper casual logic won’t help them get rid of it, either. Well, that’s an awfully fancy way of saying you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. In other news, Pope shits in woods, bear Catholic. Or do I have that backwards? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/17 "2008-09-04T23:21:36Z")
Some of the problems with the original Wakefield study: [http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D970.htm](http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D970.htm) And some of the sad results: [http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D39E.htm](http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D39E.htm) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/18 "2008-09-04T23:21:59Z")
> [@RyJae](#): > > Since Jaelyn did watch some TV I cannot rule out that link, but more interesting in our particular case is ultrasounds. Since she did have extra time due to a cyst and the OB/GYN watching to see if she would clench her fist to rule out some disease or something (I can’t remember the exact reason sorry) > > What pisses me off, is funding vaccine/autism links studies, enough is enough it is time to put the money into other possible links since this one has been done to death. I almost mentioned ultrasounds too, but every study I’ve seen has been inconclusive. However, there was a large swedish study that showed that extra ultrasound exposure made boys much more likely to be left-handed, so it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable to wonder if it can do anything else to developing brains. And I’m with you, about the funding. It makes me mad that that tiny study that “proved” a link between vaccines and autism (& crohn’s disease) wastes everyone’s time and energy to disprove it again and again instead of doing something else that would help kids out. There were already numerous studies debunking the connection when I worked with kids who have autism 6 years ago, yet it’s still believed to such a degree that they continue the fruitless effort to debunk it.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/19 "2008-09-04T23:40:03Z")
I’ve read what I could about the ultrasounds/autism link but just like anything else I can’t make heads or tails. [http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/104\_images.html](http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/104_images.html) > [@](#): > > Ultrasonic fetal scanning, from a medical standpoint, generally is considered safe if properly used when information is needed about a pregnancy. Still, ultrasound is a form of energy, and even at low levels, laboratory studies have shown it can produce physical effects in tissue, such as jarring vibrations and a rise in temperature. Although there is no evidence that these physical effects can harm a fetus, the FDA says the fact that these effects exist means that prenatal ultrasounds can’t be considered completely innocuous. [http://www.pnas.org/content/103/34/12903.abstract?maxtoshow](http://www.pnas.org/content/103/34/12903.abstract?maxtoshow) > [@](#): > > Our analysis of over 335 animals reveals that, when exposed to USW for a total of 30 min or longer during the period of their migration, a small but statistically significant number of neurons fail to acquire their proper position and remain scattered within inappropriate cortical layers and/or in the subjacent white matter. The magnitude of dispersion of labeled neurons was variable but systematically increased with duration of exposure to USW. These results call for a further investigation in larger and slower-developing brains of non-human primates and continued scrutiny of unnecessarily long prenatal ultrasound exposure. A lot of things I read are like autism is more in developed nations, more in certain areas, it is increasing so are ultrasounds, and a lot more perhaps baloney never looked into it. But IMHO worth looking more into. And that hits close to home because Jaelyn did have a very long ultrasound but it very well may be coincidence I honestly don’t spend much of my time trying to figure out “how it happened” we are already affected now it is all about “How to get her the best help” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969/20 "2008-09-05T04:12:56Z")
I don’t think a vaccine causes autism. And I know what a _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy is. That said: While one vaccine should not generally cause ill effects, giving a child ten at once has a high likelihood of overtaxing a young immune system, causing high fever. I could see that causing a neurological problem in a very small minority of cases. I’m don’t think insisting nothing’s there is good enough for parents who’ve seen an apparent connection. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-study-showing-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/461969.md?page=2)