# Another Swiftie lie gets shot down (this one's for you, Sam Stone) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273 "2004-10-03T02:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/181 "2004-10-05T07:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Look out for the rest of the sentence there. I said I was inclined to accept it, but now do not, given the evidence to the contrary. And come on, is there any claim of the SBVfT that hasn’t been disputed? They’ve all been disputed. They haven’t been debunked. Scylla’s position is most accurate - if you give the burden of proof to the Swift Boat vets, then you have to say that they’ve failed to make their case in at least two of their charges, but they haven’t been debunked, either. The problem here is that the two sides of this debate are assigning wildly different weightings to conflicting evidence. For instance, take yourself. Taking your statements at face value, you’ve decided that Kerry WAS in Cambodia on Christmas, because you’ve decided that John O’Neill was lying about never being in Cambodia himself. On the other hand, we have EVERY sailor that served with Kerry saying that they weren’t in Cambodia (and that includes his ‘band of brothers’ who are campaigning for him). We have every other swiftboat commander saying that Kerry was never sent into Cambodia. We have his gunner, who says he served on every mission of PCF-44, signing an affidavit that they never went into Cambodia. Kerry’s commanding officer says he was never sent into Cambodia. There are no records of his being in Cambodia. His own biographer says that he wasn’t in Cambodia on Christmas eve or Christmas day, but that he thinks he was there in January or February. However, there are at least three different versions of this coming out of the Kerry camp. I say that that is compelling evidence that Kerry didn’t go into Cambodia. You decide that because John O’Neill has contradicted himself once on his own Cambodia experience that you will weight that greater than the evidence above. Is that correct? Despite having been shown that O’Neill’s inconsistency is easily explainable because he served in An Thoi, from which you can technically be ‘in Cambodia’ just by sailing north on the sea a few miles? I’m not saying that your position is necessarily unreasonable. What I’m saying is that it is possible to have an honest disagreement about the issue - one worthy of serious debate, and one in which if you can’t come to an agreement there is no need to belittle your opponent. The same goes for the other charges. There is a lot of evidence contradicting Kerry’s statements about what happened on March 13 on the Bay Hap river. On the other hand, there are a few eyewitnesses who back him up (and more who don’t). This is an issue worthy of debate - enough so that the _Washington Post_ has felt it reasonable to expend considerable resources researching this story. And their own conclusion is mixed. Again, there is room here for honest debate. I know of no claim by the Swiftboat vets that can be said to have been ‘debunked’. The ebb and flow of information has swung in their direction, and away from them. Witnesses have come forward to support them, and to rebut them. In weighing the evidence, I tend to also consider the reputations and character of the men involved. The SBVT is not a bunch of burned-out vets who can’t hold jobs. They are very serious men with serious reputations to protect. Admiral Schachte was acting Judge Advocate General for the Navy. John O’Neill runs one of the most successful law firms in Houston. These men have a lot to lose by stepping forward. Given the sheer quantity of them, you can not say that they are shills of Karl Rove or the Republican party. My take on the whole thing is that these guys didn’t like Kerry when he was there, and they were outraged when he came home and trashed them. They were further outraged to the point of hatred when he re-emerged this year as a war hero after throwing away his medals, and they were damned if they were going to let him ride his Swift Boat into the White House. Given their obvious bias and animosity, is it possible that they went too far with some of their charges? Absolutely. They are clearly biased, and bias is insidious. Even if they believed they were being honest and responsible, some of their charges may be wrong or at least levelled without the requisite amount of proof for charges that serious. That’s what debate is all about. But on this board, that is impossible. The bullies on the left will just scream at you and shout and call you a liar and a bastard and an idiot, and repeat until you go away. What’s good enough for analysis in the _Post_ is apparently beneath the pale for a DEBATE board. These are the same people who have been yapping for four years about Bush’s guard service, despite the fact that there is not 1/10 of the evidence against Bush than there is against Kerry, and that the charges levelled against Bush are not nearly as serious as those levelled at Kerry. Admiral Schachte is dismissed as a liar, but when Turnipseed says, “I don’t remember Bush on base…”, he’s an oracle of truth. When people come forward to say they served with Bush on that base, they are instantly branded liars. The Swiftboat vets? Liars. Sam Stone? A Liar. Scylla? A Liar. Oh, wait! He’s conceded a point! He’s a damned fine, upstanding individual who has learned to be a better human. At least until he disagrees with them again, at which point the name calling will begin anew. And the kicker is that all these blinded-by-rage lefties think that they are the ones who are being thoughtful and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/182 "2004-10-05T09:55:09Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > In weighing the evidence, I tend to also consider the reputations and character of the men involved. The SBVT is not a bunch of burned-out vets who can’t hold jobs. They are very serious men with serious reputations to protect. Admiral Schachte was acting Judge Advocate General for the Navy. John O’Neill runs one of the most successful law firms in Houston. A firm that was a member, in 2003, of the national steering committee of Baylor university’s proposal for the George W. Bush presidential library! (yes, the current Bush not the father) > [@](#): > > These men have a lot to lose by stepping forward. “No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people” - H. L. Mencken. Or Canadians. Ignoring that there are plenty of wealthy backers that will insure that their current “bravery” will not go unrewarded is truly dumb. > [@](#): > > Given the sheer quantity of them, you can not say that they are shills of Karl Rove or the Republican party. Their old hatred, and lying about not being partisan, convinced me that there were not reliable. > [@](#): > > Given their obvious bias and animosity, is it possible that they went too far with some of their charges? Absolutely. They are clearly biased, and bias is insidious. Even if they believed they were being honest and responsible, some of their charges may be wrong or at least levelled without the requisite amount of proof for charges that serious. That’s what debate is all about. :rolleyes: no, an election, where voter opinions are being affected by their partisan attacts is not happening, it could not be about it… Fake naiveté is your forte. > [@](#): > > The Swiftboat vets? Liars. Sam Stone? A Liar. Scylla? A Liar. Oh, wait! He’s conceded a point! He’s a damned fine, upstanding individual who has learned to be a better human. At least until he disagrees with them again, at which point the name calling will begin anew. Nah, my respect for **Scylla** has gotten up, I have to slap myself for not posting a link to the doc’s report early, unlike Scylla, I had already found the report before during my research. > [@](#): > > And the kicker is that all these blinded-by-rage lefties think that they are the ones who are being thoughtful and reasonable. In many other threads, I saw many reasonable replies that were dismissed by you with very little reason. And I already think Kerry has little evidence about being in Cambodia, and I already accepted that point, that on this context, was irrelevant to Kerry’s record on his way to his medals. It has been said that the life not examined is not worth living, the lack of records, from the part of Virgin Boots Bush and noticing the surprising few witnesses for his behalf, on his missing time in the service; show me a life that risked little during a time of war, and some ass watchers think that shows leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/183 "2004-10-05T10:02:43Z")
**Sam** : You are so full of shit that I can smell you all the way up here in Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/184 "2004-10-05T10:14:20Z")
I think it’s amusing. Sam is like Neo, fighting with one arm behind his back against a hundred duplicates of Agent Smith. And winning to boot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/185 "2004-10-05T11:26:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Good for you! Does _anybody_ dispute [‘Kerry’s Cambodia Whopper’](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html)? I don’t know how anyone can, **Brutus**. After all, the by-line states that the author is attached to the American Enterprise Institute, the very acme of non-partisan clarity. I mean, if you can’t trust the opinion of a visiting scholar from a think-tank just to the right of Otto von Bismarck, well, who _can_ you trust? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/186 "2004-10-05T11:37:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t know how anyone can, **Brutus**. After all, the by-line states that the author is attached to the American Enterprise Institute, the very acme of non-partisan clarity. I mean, if you can’t trust the opinion of a visiting scholar from a think-tank just to the right of Otto von Bismarck, well, who _can_ you trust? Nobody. If you don’t trust ol’ Josh, you live in a world devoid of light, love, and trust. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/187 "2004-10-05T13:35:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s amusing. Sam is like Neo, fighting with one arm behind his back against a hundred duplicates of Agent Smith. And winning to boot. Wow. Insightful. Thanks for another cogent and compelling contribution. Sam is bending over backwards doing the slo-mo limbo as we mean liberals fire wavy bullets at him. Your analogy is more apt than you know. Sam is like Neo: he’s living in a world of complete fiction. He just hasn’t been unplugged from the hive yet. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/188 "2004-10-05T15:46:06Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Oh, I’m sorry - I must have missed your devastating factual rebuttal. > > It must have been mixed in with all the obnoxious, name-calling bullshit. That’s Rich. No one forced you into trying to smear the reputation of an american war hero. But when the going get’s to tough for you, you run away and hide, surfacing only to blame your bad reading comprehension, and then cry for mommy because the big nasty liberals went to rough on your pantsy ass. Boo-hoo. I feel your pain, brother. Let me remind you, in case you forgot. You tried to peddle this little lie, which you no doubt picked up from your favorite new friends, the swifties: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > That’s NOT what Kerry said. **He said the U.S. army was ‘like the army of Genghis Khan’, raping and pillaging the countryside.** And I **proved** that you were lying by reprinting what Kerry actually said: > [@Kerry Senate Testimony (1971)](#): > > I would like say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic… I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000, which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony. > > […] > > I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over **150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia** , not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. > > […] > > **They told the stories at times they had personally** raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, **razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan** , shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. Pretty clear what Kerry said and did not say? Pretty fucking clear that he did not say the thing you claimed he did, eh? What does that make you Sam Stone? That’s when you ran away and hid from this thread, and I can certainly understand you. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/189 "2004-10-05T16:05:00Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Or are you honestly stunned that a Canadian (they have Internet access?!? :eek: ) would read an online newspaper? Hell, I’m surprised they can READ! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/190 "2004-10-05T16:21:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s amusing. Sam is like Neo, fighting with one arm behind his back against a hundred duplicates of Agent Smith. And winning to boot. If that’s what you ‘see’ happening here, I am not the least bit surprised you’re convinced you ‘can prove the existance of god.’ – and Neo for good measure. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/191 "2004-10-05T16:29:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > If that’s what you ‘see’ happening here, I am not the least bit surprised you’re convinced you ‘can prove the existance of god.’ – and Neo for good measure. :rolleyes: I think you’ve pretty much summed up what is happening here. Sam is making a cogent and coherent case for his views, and many of you are shooting straw men out of a Tommy Gun. Were it Sam who had introduced you to the modern ontological argument, you doubtless would have referenced it as a means of rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/192 "2004-10-05T16:56:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think you’ve pretty much summed up what is happening here. Sam is making a cogent and coherent case for his views, and many of you are shooting straw men out of a Tommy Gun. Were it Sam who had introduced you to the modern ontological argument, you doubtless would have referenced it as a means of rebuttal. Yeah, yeah, let’s see first if your hero is man enough to stand up for his claims? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/193 "2004-10-05T16:57:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think you’ve pretty much summed up what is happening here. Sam is making a cogent and coherent case for his views, and many of you are shooting straw men out of a Tommy Gun. Were it Sam who had introduced you to the modern ontological argument, you doubtless would have referenced it as a means of rebuttal. His case is certainly coherent but its cogency is somewhat lacking. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/194 "2004-10-05T17:48:06Z")
So when should we expect **Sam Stones** usual “The liberals on this board are so vile, and frankly being mean to me.” thread? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/195 "2004-10-05T19:24:56Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I also think it’s rich that you guys have attacked me for daring to contradict a decorated veteran while not having served myself, while all of you have felt no compunction against calling the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, a group filled with highly decorated veterans, liars simply because they dispute your political candidate’s claims. > > This is a dispute between two groups of veterans. Both groups have purple hearts and valor medals. Taking either side means you are criticising a ‘decorated veteran’. But only in my case is it disgusting, I suppose. Your criticisms of the SBVT are perfectly valid and honorable, right? > > Hypocrites. Now I really think that Sam Stone is a true dipshit. Can you find one quote anywhere where sommeone tried to discredit the swit vets’ service records? Attacking someone’s service record is _very_ different from rebutting someone’s attack on someone’s service record. But you know that, don’t you? Try not to let partisanship and wishful thinking blind you to reality. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/196 "2004-10-05T19:31:18Z")
> [@JohnFowles](#): > > Yeah, yeah, let’s see first if your hero is man enough to stand up for his claims? And you are who again? Your familiarity is somewhat unsettling. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/197 "2004-10-05T19:36:46Z")
**Liberal:** _I’m sorry that I missed your apology. Could you link me to it?_ I said to **Biff** “I should have made myself more clear”. If you think that doesn’t count as an “apology”, I have no problem with saying explicitly that I’m **sorry** I didn’t make myself more clear. I apologize. I may say things that are unclear sometimes, but at least I **try** to avoid doing so, and when I do so inadvertently, I’m willing to take it back. You, on the other hand, seem to relish setting rhetorical traps with your cryptic little pseudo-koans just so you can zing people for misunderstanding them. It’s really annoying to deal with, especially in a setting where we’re supposed to be **fighting** ignorance, not fostering it in order to turn around and laugh at it with an air of smug superiority. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/198 "2004-10-05T19:43:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > And you are who again? Your familiarity is somewhat unsettling. Why, [John Fowles](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440351626/qid=1097005183/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-5267778-1468627?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) of course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/199 "2004-10-05T21:05:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s amusing. Sam is like Neo, fighting with one arm behind his back against a hundred duplicates of Agent Smith. And winning to boot. Amusing is one word. I’d say it’s inspiring. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/200 "2004-10-05T21:12:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Liberal:** _I’m sorry that I missed your apology. Could you link me to it?_ > > I said to **Biff** “I should have made myself more clear”. If you think that doesn’t count as an “apology”, I have no problem with saying explicitly that I’m **sorry** I didn’t make myself more clear. I apologize. > > I may say things that are unclear sometimes, but at least I **try** to avoid doing so, and when I do so inadvertently, I’m willing to take it back. > > You, on the other hand, seem to relish setting rhetorical traps with your cryptic little pseudo-koans just so you can zing people for misunderstanding them. It’s really annoying to deal with, especially in a setting where we’re supposed to be **fighting** ignorance, not fostering it in order to turn around and laugh at it with an air of smug superiority. It is interesting that you judge yourself by your intentions, but me by your perceptions. Esse quam videri. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=11)