# Another Swiftie lie gets shot down (this one's for you, Sam Stone) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273 "2004-10-03T02:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/221 "2004-10-07T01:12:16Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Oh. I see your attempted point now. I ‘lied’ because John Kerry didn’t say the U.S. Army was ‘like the armies of Genghis Khan’ - rather, he said that he had talked to over 150 people, and THEY said that they had raped, cut off heads, and razed villages reminiscent of the armies of Genghis Khan - "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. " Yep you lied, and you better suck it up, retract, and be done with it. Bullshitting can only get you so far. John Kerry talked about the confessed acts of 150 individuals and what they said their superiors knew about that. **Out of those 150 men** (it should be clear to anyone not into the habit of faking an infantile level of understanding when convenient) **some** had confessed rape, **some** had confessed cutting off heads, and **some** had confessed taking part in razing villages, and maybe **some** confessed to several of those things. About that last beaviour John Kerry (or one of those soldiers) made the analogy that it was “reminiscent of the armies of Genghis Khan”, and that analogy was told by John Kerry before congress. You flatly stated that John Kerry, himself, had asserted at some moment that “the US Army” (understood as “the US Army in general”) during the vietnam war, were generally behaving like Genghis Khan, raping and pillaging the countryside. If that were the case, every single US serviceman that ever went to Vietnam would be implicated and accused. By reading John Kerrys statement anyone can see that they clearly were not. So yeah, you lied about what John Kerry said. Or you repeated the swifties lie. But that’s a distinction that I do not giving flying fuck about because the full text is available through the small investment of a couple of seconds worth of googling. If you didn’t take the time to find out for yourself it was because you did not wan’t to. Now, in the second part of your post you try your, by now well-known, strategy of try-diversion-when-caught-with-pants-down. Instead of addressing the subject, where you have been proven wrong, you make a new set of unproven assertions, hoping this will shift attention from you failure to stand by your original claim. One might then wonder why **anyone** should feel obliged to take your word for this new set of information you provide, given that the last one proved so untrustworthy? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Kerry took a bunch of stories from people who said they were vets, and repeated them on the floor of Congress as fact. […] Kerry stepped forward as a representative of those men, to repeat their stories to Congress. Stories which, by the way, turned out to be largely bullshit. In fact, many of those ‘decorated veterans’ turned out to not even have been in Vietnam. But Kerry didn’t bother to check. The responsibility for those claims rests just as much on his shoulders as theirs. Your three new unproven assertions, neatly packaged: - The confessions of the vets in Detroit were largely bullshit. - Many of the claimed decorated veterans turned out to not even have been in in Vietnam. - John Kerry and/or those organizing the meeting in Detroit didn’t bother checking that out. Prove them, or retract. Also, please retract your earlier lie about John Kerrys statements before congress. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/222 "2004-10-07T01:26:39Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I have said repeatedly that atrocities were committed in Vietnam. > > […] Nice try Sam, but I will disregard this new diversion attempt of 6 paragraphs (including your insights on everything from swift boat battle tactics to Abu Ghraib and Jane Fonda) until you retract your first lie that I called you on. I note, though that you, for some unfathomable reason chose to repeat it here: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > But would it be fair to say that the American Army in Iraq is behaving like the armies of Genghis Khan? Would you even dream of tarring the average soldier in the field based on the actions of a few? That’s what Kerry did to his fellow Vietnam soldiers. Don’t you have any fucking decency? You know that this is a lie, it has been proven to you and still you keep on parroting it. Retract. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/223 "2004-10-07T03:01:12Z")
**Guinistasia** said: > [@](#): > > Sam, kindly go and fuck yourself with a rusty cheese grater. Jane Fonda actively SUPPORTED the Viet Cong, you partisan hack. Kerry simply pointed out that the many soldiers were out of control, that higher ups knew about it, and did nothing. > > How is that even remotely in the same catagory, you shrill fuck? You know, Guin, even though I strongly disagree with almost everything you believe, I have never, ever, personally insulted you. You might want to take that ‘shrill fuck’ comment, turn it around, and engage in a little introspection. Especially after that little blast. **John Fowles** : Differences in interpretation do not equal LIES. I happen to believe that Kerry’s unquestioning repeating of wild accusations in official settings amounts to a tacit endorsement of those accusations. You want to pick nits with my phrasing, fine. But your accusation that this makes me a LIAR is way over the top. There will be no retraction. Just a sad shaking of the head at how spittle-flying-mad some of you have become. **This Year’s Model** said: > [@](#): > > If you’re going to start repeating this claim, I’d like a cite, please. From the [Swiftvets site:](http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/article.php?story=20040706121734433) > [@](#): > > Elton Mazione, claiming Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) credentials, Kerry’s organization, along with his friends, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz, and Kenneth Van Lesser. They claimed to kill children and remove body parts as part of the notorious Phoenix program. They were neither in Phoenix nor in Vietnam. > > Kerry’s VVAW leader friend from 1971, Al Hubbard, lied about being an officer, Vietnam veteran, and sustaining war injuries. Michael Harbert, another VVAW crony of Kerry, lied about his Vietnam service. > > Frank Dux: He charged many recognizable Vietnam vets with using techniques bordering on war crimes. Dux was a fraud and non-Vietnam veteran. > > Yoshia K. Chee claimed we in Vietnam routinely resorted to the most hideous forms of torture, threw people out of helicopters, and decapitated prisoners. He was a phony. > > Mike Beamon, an alleged SEAL and Phoenix assassin, was never in the military. From the [Wikipedia entry on Winter Soldier:](http://winter-soldier-investigation.wikiverse.org/) > [@](#): > > Sen. Mark Hatfield of Oregon entered the Winter Soldier transcripts into the Congressional Record and asked the commandant of the Marine Corps for an investigation. Investigators were unable to confirm the claimed atrocities, identified several participants as never being in combat, and some participants had used the names of Vietnam veterans. Guenter Lewy in America in Vietnam says “The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing … Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities.” > … > Lawyer and activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans purporting to be interviews with Vietnam veterans about war crimes, containing absurd Vietnam tales. Reporter Neil Sheehan showed some participants had never served in Vietnam and others had not been in the situations they described. Lane admitted he did not check military records, as confirmation of details was not relevant. [1] > The following are often listed as being participants in Winter Soldier, but were actually in Lane’s book. This is probably due to Stolen Valor having an explanation of Lane’s history within the section on Winter Soldier. > > Chuck Onan, stock room clerk in Beaufort, S.C. > > Michael Schneider, deserted in Europe and deserted again in the USA. > > Terry Whitmore, was in an unpopulated area of Vietnam. > > Garry Gianninoto, medical corpsman at battalion headquarters. > > … > > VVAW leader and Winter Soldier organizer Al Hubbard lied about being an officer, Vietnam Veteran, and sustaining war injuries. > > Michael Harbert, another VVAW member, lied about his Vietnam service. > > Yoshia K. Chee claimed Phoenix operatives routinely resorted to the most hideous forms of torture, threw people out of helicopters, and decapitated prisoners. He was a phony. > > Mike Beamon, an alleged SEAL and Phoenix assassin, was never in the military. > > The VVAW and similar groups relied upon people like: > > K. Barton Osborn, a Vietnam veteran and testifier of atrocities to Congress. He told of prisoners being thrown out of helicopters, a woman starved to death, a prisoner being killed by a six inch dowel pushed through his ear. Osborn was not in Phoenix, refused to name names, and provided no documentation. > > Lieutenants Francis Reitemeyer and Michael J. Cohn. Both sought conscientious objector status because of Phoenix. Reitemeyer testified to being assigned to Phoenix as an adviser and maintain a kill quota of fifty bodies a month. They became famous as My Lai hit the news. Neither served in Vietnam, or in Phoenix. Reitemeyer later denied receiving any assassination training. You can read more about Winter Soldier at [Wintersoldier.com](http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Timeline) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/224 "2004-10-07T03:32:41Z")
Alright so I followed **Sam’s** link to Wikipedia and what do I find. Right at the top: [The Link](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092504D.shtml) > [@](#): > > \*\* From the National Archives: new proof of Vietnam War atrocities\*\*. > > John Kerry is being pilloried for his shocking Senate testimony 34 years ago that many U.S. soldiers-not just a few “rogues”-were committing atrocities against the Vietnamese. U.S. military records that were classified for decades but are now available in the National Archives back Kerry up and put the lie to his critics. Contrary to what those critics, including the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, have implied, Kerry was speaking on behalf of many soldiers when he testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, > > … > > But there are plentiful records to back up Kerry’s 1971 testimony point by point. > > On its website, the SBVT tries to debunk the Winter Soldier Investigation by using the same rhetoric that apologists for the Vietnam War have long employed: They paint the vets who attended the Detroit meeting as a parade of fake veterans offering false testimony. “None of the Winter Soldier ‘witnesses’ Kerry cited in his Senate testimony less than three months later were willing to sign affidavits, and their gruesome stories lacked the names, dates, and places that would allow their claims to be tested,” the SBVT claims. “Few were willing to cooperate with military investigators.” > > While numerous authors have repeatedly advanced such assertions, U.S. military documents tell a radically different story. According to the formerly classified army records, 46 soldiers who testified at the WSI made allegations that, in the eyes of U.S. Army investigators, “merited further inquiry.” As of March 1972, the army’s CID noted that of the 46 allegations, “only 43 complainants have been identified” by investigators. “Only” 43 of 46? That means at least 93 percent of the veterans surveyed were real, not fake. Moreover, according to official records, CID investigators attempted to contact 41 people who testified at the Detroit session, which occurred between January 31 and February 2, 1971. Five couldn’t be located, according to records. Of the remaining 36, 31 submitted to interviews-hardly the “few” asserted by SBVT. Moreover, as Gerald Nicosia has noted in his mammoth tome Home to War, “A complete transcript of the Winter Soldier testimony was sent to the Pentagon, and the military never refuted a word of it.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/225 "2004-10-07T03:59:38Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Alright so I followed **Sam’s** link to Wikipedia and what do I find. Right at the top: > > [The Link](http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092504D.shtml) Drowning in his own shit. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/226 "2004-10-07T04:02:08Z")
Oh, no doubt he’ll find SOME way to excuse it, dismiss it, or spin it. **Sam** , I don’t care how polite you are. When you start actively participating in this kind of shit, despite evidence to the contrary, you betray the very purpose of this board-to fight ignorance. Spreading lies and libeling a good man does NOT fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/227 "2004-10-07T04:14:49Z")
The “war phony” is a pretty wide spread phenomenon. The guys in the VVAW were aware of it, and embarassed to have to deal with it. But by no stretch of the imagination was the fake veteran exclusive to the anti-war movement. You aver without proof that these peoples motivations were political, you overlook the possibility that their motives were pathetic. Secondly, its disingenuous of you to use Wikipedia as a cite without informing the unsuspecting reader that Wikipedia is a “free encyclopedia”, and does not, so far as I know, makes claims to substantiate contributor’s efforts. You should at least note that the author, Mr. O’Daniel, has an entirely apparent political axe to grind as regards Sen Kerry. A bit less than kosher, **Sam**. But your focus on whether or not the reports are exaggerated buggers the question. You flail Kerry for claiming that these “misconducts” were commonplace, but refuse to declare your definition, or his. If Kerry were lying about these things being “commonplace” then mustn’t you define “commonplace” in order to prove your point? If it were an “everyday” occurance, that would be 365 victims a year. Is that an exaggeration, **Sam**? How do you know? Is “everyday” the same as “commonplace”? Of the 150 soldiers, how many were lying, **Sam**? You insist that some were lying, OK, for the sake of arguments, lets stipulate “some”. Not all? Half? Most? What do you think, **Sam** , and why do you think it? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/228 "2004-10-07T04:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, no doubt he’ll find SOME way to excuse it, dismiss it, or spin it. Oh, if you insist. First, the link sevastapol followed is to ‘[truthout.org](http://truthout.org)’, a left-wing site, and the ‘cite’ is an editorial. Second, NOTHING in that cite contradicts the SBVT. It’s classic spin. For instance, > [@](#): > > "According to the formerly classified army records, 46 soldiers who testified at the WSI made allegations that, in the eyes of U.S. Army investigators, “merited further inquiry.” The cite doesn’t say what ‘merited further inquiry’ means, but it seems likely that it could mean anything from, "Let’s check out this guy because it sounds like bullshit’, to, “Well, the story is plausible enough that it could possibly be true - we’d better check it out.” Much more interesting would be how many of the 46 were, you know, VERIFIED. And the cite doesn’t say. Second, it says that 46 of the claims merited further inquiry. Yet, weren’t there something like 150 claims in total? Does that mean 2/3 of them were deemed to be bullshit without even having to do an inquiry? It then goes on to say, > [@](#): > > As of March 1972, the army’s CID noted that of the 46 allegations, “only 43 complainants have been identified” by investigators. “Only” 43 of 46? That means at least 93 percent of the veterans surveyed were real, not fake. Hang on. 93 percent OF THE VETERANS THAT MERITED FURTHER INQUIRY. What about the ones who didn’t? So the best of the best stories, the ones that sounded plausible enough to be checked out, were followed up. Of those, three people were identified to be fakes? I assume if the military couldn’t identify them, it’s because they weren’t soldiers. > [@](#): > > “A complete transcript of the Winter Soldier testimony was sent to the Pentagon, and the military never refuted a word of it.” This is bullshit of the type you often hear from psychics and other hustlers. “I sent my theory of UFO control of the world series to the government, AND THEY NEVER REFUTED IT.” Maybe because they couldn’t stop laughing. Or more likely in the case of Winter Soldier, the military just didn’t want to get involved in a political fight with these people, or the report got buried in bureaucracy, or whatever. The key takeaway is that refusal to respond to a wild accusation does not equal proof that the accusation is true. And again, I’m disputing that individual atrocities happened. What I’m saying what wrong was for Kerry to collect a few such stories, plus some fake ones, and then present them as evidence of _widespread, common behaviour_. For instance, I could say this: “The American forces in Iraq have been ravaging that country. The soldiers have been throwing people off of bridges, strangling suspects, humiliating prisoners, and blowing up homes and killing children, reminiscent of the armies of Genghis Khan”. Everything in that sentence is factually true. The impression being put forward by it is wildly off the mark. Anyone saying something like the above is guilty of spinning isolated incidents to make them sound widespread and common in order to trash the military and weaken support for the war at home. THAT is what John Kerry did. Your cite says that there are ‘hundreds’ of cases of abuse in military files. That wouldn’t surprise me. That war went on for TEN YEARS. Millions of men served. In contrast, less than 200,000 serve in Iraq, and that war is not even two years old, yet we already have half a dozen recorded incidents of variious abuses and even a couple of atrocities. That’s war. But would you characterize the current military as a bunch of out-of-control maniacs raping and pillaging the countryside? That’s how Kerry characterized the soldiers in Vietnam. > [@](#): > > Sam, I don’t care how polite you are. When you start actively participating in this kind of shit, despite evidence to the contrary, you betray the very purpose of this board-to fight ignorance. Spreading lies and libeling a good man does NOT fight ignorance. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, Guin. For example, we’ve been treated to four years of conspiracy theories about Halliburton, George Bush doing coke, the Guard/AWOL story, ad nauseum. Almost all of it bullshit. I don’t recall you running around swearing at those folks and calling them names. Perhaps because they are saying things you want to hear? Don’t flatter yourself that you’re a fighter for truth and against ignorance. You rarely add anything to these debates either than an ‘attaboy’ for people saying things you like and abuse hurled at those who don’t. I honestly can’t think of a single meaningful contribution to anything resembling fact you’ve made on these boards, other than your worthwhile contributions to our discussions on the Romanov family several years ago. It’s doubly-annoying for someone like me who is usually outnumbered about 10-1 on this board and spends WAY too much time doing hard research to defend my point of view to have you saunter in and throw around insults, while never doing any heavy lifting yourself. **Mr. Svinlesha** can insult me - he’s at least earned the right to take a shot at me because he puts in hard work to refute what he believes to be wrong. You, on the other hand, can go straight to hell. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/229 "2004-10-07T04:40:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What do you think, **Sam** , and why do you think it? **luci, luci** , must you persist in this bootless effort to nail Jell-O to the wall? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/230 "2004-10-07T04:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Secondly, its disingenuous of you to use Wikipedia as a cite without informing the unsuspecting reader that Wikipedia is a “free encyclopedia”, and does not, so far as I know, makes claims to substantiate contributor’s efforts. You should at least note that the author, Mr. O’Daniel, has an entirely apparent political axe to grind as regards Sen Kerry. A bit less than kosher, Sam. I think it’s general knowledge what Wikipedia is - and the article there is footnoted. You’re free to read the footnotes to verify it. I like how you’re attacking me for a Wikipedia link, but Sevastapol’s link to an editorial at a left-wing cite goes unmentioned, hmnn? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/231 "2004-10-07T04:43:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by elucidator > What do you think, Sam, and why do you think it? I think my message immediately following yours makes it clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/232 "2004-10-07T05:01:01Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > “The American forces in Iraq have been ravaging that country. The soldiers have been throwing people off of bridges, strangling suspects, humiliating prisoners, and blowing up homes and killing children, reminiscent of the armies of Genghis Khan”. > > Everything in that sentence is factually true. The impression being put forward by it is wildly off the mark. Anyone saying something like the above is guilty of spinning isolated incidents to make them sound widespread and common in order to trash the military and weaken support for the war at home. THAT is what John Kerry did. Bullshit. You’ve been called on this particular point time and time again, and you’re using your standard tactics of melting away when challenged and posting the exact same shit in another thread. It’s pathetic, really. One more time - Kerry did not accuse the “American forces” as a whole of war crimes. He did not accuse the “chain of command”. He made allegations that there were various incidences of war crimes (not a systematic program) arising from widespread individual acts (ie not the entire army), sanctioned by officers at various levels (ie not the entire chain of command). He highlighted that these were allegations, but that they were from first-person witnesses. Let’s fix your hypothetical about Iraq: “Many veterans of the war in Iraq have told me about seeing or participating in war crimes. In some cases, innocent people were arrested, in others wedding parties were destroyed, in others Iraqi prisoners were beaten, forced to perform sex acts with each other and anally raped with a lightstick. The prisons were like the tortures of Saddam Hussein. There are many of these abuses and some have been carried out with the awareness of officers at various levels of command.” This statement is closer to the statement of Kerry on Vietnam - widespread individual acts, awareness of various officers, referring to proved events. This statement is factually true and the impressions being put forward by it are right on the money. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/233 "2004-10-07T05:16:21Z")
We’re just going to have to disagree about that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/234 "2004-10-07T05:53:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I think my message immediately following yours makes it clearer. It comes closer to establishing the **Stone Quotient** , the degree and severity of “misconduct” that can be reasonably expected and shrugged off as part of the ordinary moral depravity of war. Shit happens to indigenous personnel. “Hundreds” over a “TEN YEAR” period. You are aghast that anyone wants to make a Big Hairy Ass Deal about this piddling number. So now, at least, we are groping blindly towards quanitification. Roughly, a hundred per year? Call that a 1.0 SQ? But what assurance have we that such is, in fact, an adequate approximation? We are given to understand that these numbers are cases investigated and acted upon. Do we have any reason to believe that _all_, or even most, of the incidents of misconduct were investigated and filed away? What might be the ratio between crimes committed and accountability satisfied? Might not the true number reach an SQ factor of 3.5? Or 7.0? I have no idea. You don’t either. Kerry said it was “commonplace”. If the true number is 10.5 SQ, is that “commonplace”? You swear it wasn’t “commonplace”, that Kerry is a traitor and a liar. Serious charges, to be sure. We are entitled to know, don’t you agree, just exactly how _you_ define “commonplace”, if we are to agree or disagree with your assertions as to Kerry’s vile mendacity. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/235 "2004-10-07T05:53:50Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > We’re just going to have to disagree about that. Please respond to my points, or retract your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/236 "2004-10-07T07:38:43Z")
Firstly this is the bit that clinches it for me. > [@](#): > > “A complete transcript of the Winter Soldier testimony was sent to the Pentagon, and the military never refuted a word of it.” Remember the White House was hostile to Kerry and together with the Military they had an obvious and strong incentive to rebut the Winter Soldiers claims. Secondly **Sam** makes an open but in my mind incorrect protest that a mere 43 or so witnesses merited investigation. There are many other factors besides reliability that tend to disqualify complaints from investigation. Lastly **Sam** also protests my cite, unfairly in my view. I followed a link from _his own cite_. Moreover it is the first and most prominent link that I saw there. I can hardly be accused of hunting for a left wing source. As it happens I am completely unfamiliar with the source. However it does appear that it makes meritorious factual claims. Accordingly its reputation does not seem material to me. I think it does credit to Wikipedia (not a resource I use really) that they include a diversity of links. Plainly in this case the main entry does benefit from links to alternative viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/237 "2004-10-07T07:50:49Z")
I re-read the link. The journalist identifies himself as coming from the Village Voice. Again, a source I’m not familiar with. I think this sums up the point of contention. > [@](#): > > They were trying to demonstrate that the shocking My Lai massacre on March 16, 1968, of 567 civilians in a Vietnamese village-a barbarism unknown to the American public until late 1969-was not an isolated incident in which rogue troops went berserk, but simply one of many U.S.-perpetrated atrocities. As I follow it, **Sam** et Swiftvets are more, ‘isolated incident’ men. Kerry etc dispute this. > [@](#): > > The archives have hundreds of files of official U.S. military investigations of such atrocities committed by American soldiers. I’ve pored over those records-which were classified for decades-for my Columbia University dissertation and, now, this Voice article. The exact number of investigated allegations of atrocities is unknown, as is the number of such barbaric incidents that occurred but weren’t investigated. Some war crimes, like the Tiger Force atrocities exposed last year by The Toledo Blade, have only come to light decades later. Plainly there were many. How you wish to categorize those incidents is a matter of opinion. It seems to me the argument concerns a matter of degree: How do you properly categorise what went on? Reasonable people can disagree on this. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/238 "2004-10-07T12:53:15Z")
**Sam** : > [@](#): > > \*Even in the Iraq war there have been numerous cases of atrocities - Abu Ghraib, a couple of civilians pushed off a bridge (one drowned), a general killed by an overzealous interrogator, etc. I’m sure there are more that we haven’t heard about because the perps didn’t get caught. But would it be fair to say that the American Army in Iraq is behaving like the armies of Genghis Khan? Would you even dream of tarring the average soldier in the field based on the actions of a few? That’s what Kerry did to his fellow Vietnam soldiers…. > > For instance, I could say this: > > **"The American forces in Iraq have been ravaging that country. The soldiers have been throwing people off of bridges, strangling suspects, humiliating prisoners, and blowing up homes and killing children, reminiscent of the armies of Genghis Khan".** > > Everything in that sentence is factually true. The impression being put forward by it is wildly off the mark. Anyone saying something like the above is guilty of spinning isolated incidents to make them sound widespread and common in order to trash the military and weaken support for the war at home. THAT is what John Kerry did.\* First off, with regard to your statement (which I’ve bolded), I see nothing off the mark at all. Consider, for example, the following, taken from two soldier’s [letters](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1319718,00.html): > [@](#): > > **From: Specialist Willy > Sent: Tuesday March 9 2004 1.23pm > Subject: Thank you** > > _It’s hard listening to my platoon sergeant saying, **“If you decide you want to kill a civilian that looks threatening, shoot him. I’d rather fill out paperwork than get one of my soldiers killed by some raghead.” We are taught that if someone even looks threatening we should do something before they do something to us.** I wasn’t brought up in fear like that, and it’s going to take some getting used to…._ > > **From: Sean Huze > Sent: Sunday March 28 2004 7.56pm > Subject: "Dude, Where’s My Country?"** > > _I am an LCPL in the US Marine Corps and veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Mr Moore, please keep pounding away at Bush. I’m not some pussy when it comes to war. **However, the position we were put in - fighting an enemy that used women, children, and other civilians as shields; forcing us to choose between firing at “area targets” (nice way of saying firing into crowds) or being killed by the bastards using the crowds for cover - is indescribably horrible.**_ Sounds pretty Genghis Khanish to me. I mean tell me, **Sam** : what do you think war really is? A bunch of noble soldiers dressed up in camouflage, bravely protecting the women and children, and only shooting when they see the whites of their opponents eyeballs? If so, you are incredibly naïve; although that might explain in part your unwavering support for the Iraqi Invasion Disaster. Secondly, the support for the Vietnam war _needed_ to be weakened at home, because the war was, in and of itself, wrong. The US had no business involving itself militarily in the struggle of an indigenous people for state autonomy on the other side of the globe. And as became abundantly clear after the US lost, the Domino Effect turned out to be just so much hooey. The same is true in this case. The basis for the war, as claimed by the administration, has turned out to be just so much bullshit, as I tried to warn you, over and over again, prior to the invasion. Now that they’ve gone and done it anyway, and it has turned out that I was correct, why should I support it, or the people who have promoted it? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/239 "2004-10-07T13:26:35Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > I re-read the link. The journalist identifies himself as coming from the Village Voice. Again, a source I’m not familiar with. The Village Voice is a New York paper. Be careful when you use it as a sole reference though. The Voice is (or was) considered to be a left wing liberal and antiwar paper, and had a definite bias in its reporting and editorials. That said, My Lai **did** happen. It was not an isolated incident, it was only the best known and most publicized. It was also covered in the right wing conservtive pro-war papers. Take away the spin that both sides put on it, and you are left with the simple fact that these things **were** happening. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/240 "2004-10-07T16:02:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Differences in interpretation do not equal LIES. I happen to believe that Kerry’s unquestioning repeating of wild accusations in official settings amounts to a tacit endorsement of those accusations. You want to pick nits with my phrasing, fine. But your accusation that this makes me a LIAR is way over the top. > > There will be no retraction. Just a sad shaking of the head at how spittle-flying-mad some of you have become. So this is a matter of interpretation, huh? Guess what, I started [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=279667) just for you, where you can show us just how you interpret John Kerrys House Foreign Committee testimony to read “the US military in vietnam was like the army of Genghis Khan, raping and pilaging the countryside”. I look forward to an interesting excercise in reading comprehension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=13)