# Another Swiftie lie gets shot down (this one's for you, Sam Stone) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273 "2004-10-03T02:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/41 "2004-10-03T16:21:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, if the SBVT says that pi is a transcendental number, we should consider it as evidence against the fact? You know what I am saying. If however they were the first to say it, I would want incontravertible proof, given their history. Meanwhile, I choose to assume that only bile and venom come out of their scurvy scabrous pie holes. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/42 "2004-10-03T16:22:38Z")
By the way, if the swifties make any falsifiable claim in the realm of mathematics, geography, cuisine or any other intellectual venue _other than John Kerry’s military and post-Vietnam experiences_, I’ll be the first to give their assertion the benefit of the doubt. Opposition to the group is not based on an argumentum ad hominem fallacy; it’s based on their demonstrated willingness to lie in pursuit of their one reason for existence as a political group: their total opposition to John Kerry. For example, in light of recent history, should we _not_ require a high standard of proof for any documents produced by CBS News from undisclosed sources? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/43 "2004-10-03T16:34:16Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > For example, in light of recent history, should we _not_ require a high standard of proof for any documents produced by CBS News from undisclosed sources? Yes Yes Yes! There has been too much innuendo, half-truth and outright lying in this campaign already. To make my position crystal clear, and take this at face value, I would automatically discount anything the Swifites say now. My mind is closed to them. CBS could use the excuse that they didn’t know, and it might be true (maybe). That is not the same as deliberately and repeatedly lying. Where is it written that “Thou shalt listen to the liar”? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/44 "2004-10-03T17:28:33Z")
**Diogenes** : Let’s get it straight, sparky. You opened a pit thread to gleefully point out that I’m an idiot for saying his butt injury was rice shrapnel, and as evidence you cite an article about a THIGH injury which happened long before. From this, I see that you feel free to run around calling me vicious names and standing on the certitude of what you KNOW to be wrong, and now you’ve shown that you don’t even understand the BASIC FACTS of the argument. Pathetic. So what do you do? Admit you were wrong? No, you attack me as a ‘foreigner’. You’re a class act. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/45 "2004-10-03T17:46:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, if the SBVT says that pi is a transcendental number, we should consider it as evidence against the fact? As I also pointed before, even to you, rare is the time when two different points of view have the same value. There is that silly matter of evidence in favor of one or the other. You are, very conveniently, forgetting the fact that the main swifters were claiming non-partisanship at the beginning, even I found evidence that they lied on that regard. Then, I realized I had seen this movie before: if they turned a hero like Max Clelan into a traitor, this is just the same old maneuver of making manure walk in thanks to money. When it was revealed that several swifters, up to few years ago, where actually praising Kerry, and now remembered something else. That was also the time to dismiss the swifters. In the case of the few fake documents against Bush, I did not defend them or became a **Sam** for the case against Bush, that is because very quickly I began to realize they were serious doubts of their origin, and for the longest time I am distrustful and skeptic of evidence against the record that is too perfect or convenient. With the passage of time, the bits of evidence piled up against the few Bush documents, so I dismissed them even before Gunga Dan came forward with an apology. With the passage of time the bits of evidence piled up against the swifters, as you jump in discussions like this, mostly for rhetorical points I see an apology from you would be silly, you actually never take a stand, only a rhetorical defense of the discredited. Some other dopers though need to apologize. **Sam** : So, a still wounded Kerry did his duty? He is now a bigger hero IMO! Thank you for all your efforts in this unpleasant business, since you make me realize that! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/46 "2004-10-03T17:51:03Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So what do you do? Admit you were wrong? No, you attack me as a ‘foreigner’. > > You’re a class act. As **Dio** pointed out, you have a lot of nerve defaming an American war hero. I’m sure you wouldn’t appreciate Americans slagging off on Canadian vets. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/47 "2004-10-03T18:13:29Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > Seems like you could make more of **Sam** spinning if/when he does so rather than predicting it and possibly having lots of folks watch you deal with foot-in-mouth disease, **ETF** 😉 And now, having read this far… Here’s YOUR serving of crow, my fine pumpkin. 😛😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/48 "2004-10-03T18:17:56Z")
Pointing out that someone is absolutely, demonstrably WRONG is ‘spinning’? Dio mixes up a thigh injury from an earlier wound with a butt injury, and in his ignorance opens a pit thread about it. I would think it worth pointing out, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/49 "2004-10-03T18:18:24Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And now, having read this far… Here’s YOUR serving of crow, my fine pumpkin. > > 😛😉 Feh. I admit nothing. NOTHING! **Sam Stone** will be back in this thread ANY MINUTE to reveal how, miracle of miracles, Kerry’s doctor is being paid by a Dem 527 to say there’s actual shrapnel in the offending area when it is in reality bits of baby republican. Nevermind that I’m still not entirely clear on this whole mess anyway. Forgive me for not wanting to slog through 22 pages of a GD thread rife with posturing, cites, countercites, etc. Plus there’s football on:) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/50 "2004-10-03T18:19:34Z")
See post number 12 from **moriah** to see how deceitful the swifters and now **Sam** are. The record and the people who were there directly contradict that: > **[John Kerry's Service Record](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/service-mettle/)** > > Were John Kerry's Vietnam War service medals earned under 'fishy' circumstances? The second purple hearth was obtained for the wound in the thigh. The third medal was for a wound in the **right arm** , that rice thing in the butt was magical I tell you! Wherever it came from, it was a stupid point to make in the attempt to dismiss **any** medal. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/51 "2004-10-03T18:29:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Pointing out that someone is absolutely, demonstrably WRONG is ‘spinning’? > > Dio mixes up a thigh injury from an earlier wound with a butt injury, and in his ignorance opens a pit thread about it. I would think it worth pointing out, wouldn’t you? Context **Sam** , you are right in that **Dio** mistook the medal order, it is however true to say that it was a big fat lie from the swifters to say the rice wound was the only reason for the medal. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/52 "2004-10-03T18:31:39Z")
The ‘wound’ in his right arm was a MINOR BRUISE. One of the requirements for a purple heart is that the wound ‘must require medical treatment’. Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a minor bruise on your arm treated. I’m getting sick of this. You guys don’t even know the facts of the case, so there is no point in trying to discuss it. If you won’t even bother to learn what the issues are, there is no point in talking about it. Diogenes can get a pass for posting an OP that is simply factually wrong, but hey, it started a good pile-on party, so let’s just ignore that. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/53 "2004-10-03T18:42:32Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The ‘wound’ in his right arm was a MINOR BRUISE. One of the requirements for a purple heart is that the wound ‘must require medical treatment’. > > Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a minor bruise on your arm treated. > [@snopes](#): > > The injury was not serious — Brinkley notes that **Kerry went on a regular Swift boat patrol the next day with a bandage on his arm** , and the Boston Globe quoted William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral, as recalling that “It was not a very serious wound at all.” Emphasis mine. Not a serious wound: true. Required medical treatment? Iunno, but ISTM Kerry got medical treatment in the form of a bandage. It doesn’t say it required medical treatment either, but I’m hardly schooled on what requires medical treatment in a combat zone… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/54 "2004-10-03T18:43:47Z")
Go read the actual medical report. It describes shrapnel in the butt, and a ‘minor contusion’ on the arm. ‘Minor contusion’ is medical-speak for ‘minor bruise’. Again - the wound must REQUIRE medical treatment. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/55 "2004-10-03T18:46:10Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The ‘wound’ in his right arm was a MINOR BRUISE. One of the requirements for a purple heart is that the wound ‘must require medical treatment’. So was there were the rice did go too? :wally > [@](#): > > Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a minor bruise on your arm treated. > **[John Kerry's Service Record](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/service-mettle/)** > > Were John Kerry's Vietnam War service medals earned under 'fishy' circumstances? > [@](#): > > …another mine detonated **wounding** Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm… > (signed by Admiral Zumwalt). To me, the superior’s report in the matter was the desisive factor on Kerry getting the medal. > [@](#): > > I’m getting sick of this. You guys don’t even know the facts of the case So why did this rice “fact” came to be a factor on discrediting Kerry’s medals? Why if you are the “measurer” of the facts you did not realize how silly that accusation was. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/56 "2004-10-03T18:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Hands up, all of you who have gone to the hospital to have a minor bruise on your arm treated. Hands up, all those who’ve received injuries during combat, or during a crisis situation (car accident, fire, etc.)? Now, how many of you holding your hands up have received those injuries as part of a military or police organization, and subject to their procedures, policies and regulations? If your hand is still up, I trust you remember how hard it is to tell the seriousness of your own injuries, and sometimes even those of your comrades, during and immediately after the event. Some of you may have had the situation where that wound you felt yourself receiving in the background while you dealt with the event turned out to be quite serious. You probably remember being examined and treated by a corpsman or other medical technician, and perhaps even by a doctor, even if your wounds were “minor”, and that if you later read the summary details recorded in your personnel jacket, they seemed rather disconnected to your actual experience. **Sam Stone** , I believe you have neither the experiential standing nor the moral authority to propound on the relative medal-worthiness of wounds received by any war hero of any nationality. Please stop. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/57 "2004-10-03T19:00:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > **Sam Stone** , I believe you have neither the experiential standing nor the moral authority to propound on the relative medal-worthiness of wounds received by any war hero of any nationality. Please stop. I didn’t know you had been wounded in combat, [b[xenonphon41\*\*. A minor hijack from our regularly scheduled left-wing melt down - I assume that “rice” shrapnel refers to a piece of metal of roughly the size of a grain of rice, not an actual rice grain. Am I correct? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/58 "2004-10-03T19:05:38Z")
Hey GIGObuster, was that Admiral Elmo P. Zumwalt? Wasn’t he generally known as a hardass SOB who didn’t believe in giving anything to anyone unless/until it had been earned? Wouldn’t it be reasonable to say someone like him, in addition, would not jeopardize his own long career just to “give away” medals to a relatlvely unknown Lieutenant? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/59 "2004-10-03T19:07:11Z")
I’ve not been injured in combat, **Shodan** , but I have been (and buddies who were working beside me have been) during two different shipboard casualty events. Doesn’t give me any more moral standing to denigrate someone else’s wound than **Sam** has, but it does give me some insight into injuries sustained in stress environments, and into injury reporting in the military. “Rice shrapnel” refers to the SBVT claim that Kerry’s rather irrelevant buttocks injury was due to grains of actual rice lodging in his buttocks after he destroyed an enemy rice cache via grenade. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/60 "2004-10-03T19:10:08Z")
No, it means ACTUAL RICE. Earlier in the day, John Kerry and James Rassmann went ashore and found a cache of rice. They threw a grenade in it to blow it up, and misjudged how powerful the blast would be. As they were running away, the grenade went off, and the rice exploded. Bits of rice stuck in Kerry’s butt. Again, this is beyond dispute. It is part of Kerry’s official biography. Later in the day, they had an engagement on the Bay Hap river. Kerry claims a mine exploded near his boat, knocking him around and bruising his arm. The after-action report lists as wounded Lt. jg Kerry, minor contusion on arm and shrapnel in buttock. He was awarded a purple heart. The point is, the report omits the fact that the shrapnel was received earlier in the day accidentally, and not by enemy fire. The minor bruise did not qualify for a purple heart. The report in question appears to be written by John Kerry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=4)