# Another Swiftie lie gets shot down (this one's for you, Sam Stone) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 3, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273 "2004-10-03T02:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/121 "2004-10-04T03:02:27Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Am I missing something? Yes–faith. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/122 "2004-10-04T03:06:59Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Wow, talk about splitting hairs. Are you maybe referring to my post where I proved beyond doubt that you are a damned liar? That would be post #113. Or are to much of a coward to try to defend your statements after they have been shown to be falsehoods? No surprise there… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/123 "2004-10-04T03:09:24Z")
> [@JohnFowles](#): > > Are you maybe referring to my post where I proved beyond doubt that you are a damned liar? That would be post #113. Or are to much of a coward to try to defend your statements after they have been shown to be falsehoods? > > No surprise there… Tell me about it. Two threads on, and I’m still waiting for him to acknowledge that sometimes “contusions” “require” “medical treatment.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/124 "2004-10-04T03:10:29Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Wow, talk about splitting hairs. What did Kerry say that was false? Please use specific quotes since you cannot be trusted to paraphrase accurately. **Scylla** , The goddamn citation does not say a goddamn thing about a goddamn ass wound. If you want to assert that Kerry somehow fraudulently claimed an ass wound in order to get a Purple Heart then kindly PROVE it or shut the fuck up about it. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/125 "2004-10-04T03:14:19Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Yes–faith. heh Yeah, I guess so. :o LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/126 "2004-10-04T03:15:54Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Forgive my possible ignorance, but… the actual citation plainly says “… for injuries received on 13 March 1969.” So, it doesn’t _explicitly_ mention any injury (not even the ass wounds). The theory being put forth by the Swiftvets is that the contusion does not qualify, presumably because it must be an injury that requires and is treated in order to get a PH. A bruise isn’t treated. Therefore, it must be the ass wound(s) > [@](#): > > That’s why I posted 2 cites, in my last post, so we could see the documentation of the “injuries received on 13 March 1969.” Which, as you know, tells us of the arm contusions and the ass wound. > > Am I missing something? Maybe. If the ass wound was received earlier in the day, it wouldn’t qualify since accidental wounds don’t count, only those received in combat. So, the swiftees propose that 1. The contusion doesn’t qualify because it’s not treatable. and 2. The ass wound was not received in the course of action with the enemby so 3. The PH is not deserved. LilShieste [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/127 "2004-10-04T03:20:38Z")
> [@Minty Green](#): > > Tell me about it. Two threads on, and I’m still waiting for him to acknowledge that sometimes “contusions” “require” “medical treatment.” The problem with a guy like Sam Stone is that after lurking on these boards for as long as I have I know that he’s not nearly stupid enough to just lick up a disgusting Swift Vet distortion like “Kerry said the [whole of] the US Army were like the army of Genghis Khan” (my paraphrase) without knowing that it is very likely a misrepresentation of what kerry said. We know by now that he choses to ignorantly pass this on anyway, hoping he won’t get called on it, hoping that stuff like that will pass bye unnoticed. But a lie is a lie, and if you gladly accept supporting and defending liars for the sake of hurting your political opponents, and in that process passes on those lies then you deserve to be called what you are. Just one more liar. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/128 "2004-10-04T03:22:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What did Kerry say that was false? Please use specific quotes since you cannot be trusted to paraphrase accurately. > > **Scylla** , The goddamn citation does not say a goddamn thing about a goddamn ass wound. If you want to assert that Kerry somehow fraudulently claimed an ass wound in order to get a Purple Heart then kindly PROVE it or shut the fuck up about it. Last time it was fuckspeak. Today it’s blasphemy. I **will** talk about whatever I like. I didn’t say the citation mentioned the ass. It mentioned wounds. In all accounts there are only two places Kerry was wounded. The first is the arm, a bruise. The Swiftvets maintain this does not qualify. The second place is the ass. He got wounded there earlier in the day. Do you propose he got wounded in the ass more than once that day, or are you proposing further undocumented wounds? Really, it looks like you’re not proposing anything, just talking smack. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/129 "2004-10-04T03:26:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > So, the swiftees propose that 1. The contusion doesn’t qualify because it’s not treatable. To which I reply: then try to change the criteria. Don’t try to smear the recipient of the award in question. [Criteria:](http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm) > [@](#): > > **A physical lesion is not required** , however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. Treatment: > [@](#): > > He was treated with a tetanus shot, topical dressing and an ace bandage and advised to apply warm soaks to his right forearm. The. End. There is no point in condemning _Kerry_ in this matter, even if you (they) feel the need to condemn _someone_. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/130 "2004-10-04T03:26:33Z")
What the Swifties “maintain” is of absolutely no consequence. The Navy itself says that Kerry’s arm was wounded and was treated and that is sufficient justification for the Purple Heart. The ass wound doesn’t enter into it and the Swifties’ opinion is completely worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/131 "2004-10-04T03:46:18Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > To which I reply: then try to change the criteria. Don’t try to smear the recipient of the award in question. The criteria is what it is. Awards without a criteria for getting them seems pointless. > [@](#): > > The. End. There is no point in condemning _Kerry_ in this matter, even if you (they) feel the need to condemn _someone_. > > LilShieste Maybe, maybe not. Is being advised to soak your arm considered treatment? I honestly don’t know. It looks like the other things are for Kerry’s ass. Maybe the Ace bandage is for the arm and that’s treatment. Beats me. The Swiftees main point isn’t whether Kerry can still have his PH. The point is that Kerry was greatly exagerrating or telling outlright lies and contradictory stories, and behaving opportunistically. The first time I heard the Rasmussen story was when Kerry told it during the convention. The version he gives then implies that everyone else ran away and Kerry alone took the boat back and while wounded multiple times and bleeding from his arm and ass so that the gunnels were running with blood he yanked Rasmussen out of the water and escaped, being highly surprised that he was not killed by the withering enemy fire directed at him. This was the “No man left behind” story. The truth is that nobody ran, his boat wasn’t hit by the mine, his ass was already wounded when he fragged himself with his own grenade earlier in the day, and the bleeding arm was a minor bruise. I really don’t care about the medals. That doesn’t make bravery. That doesn’t make honor. I think Kerry behaved honorably that day. I think the way he lied about it later, and told multiple contradictory stories sucked. I think the way his stories aggrandized himself and belittled his fellow Swiftvets also sucked. I think this story is representative, The Sampan incident follows the same pattern, The XMas in Cambodia follows the same pattern, and his indictment of his fellow Swiftvets after the war follows the same pattern. His 4 months and out follows the same pattern as does his suspequent betrayal of his fellow servicemen with VVAW, and the lies he gathered and passed on at the Wintersoldier Investigation and testimony. I’m not looking at this thing in a vaccum but as just one in a long line of identifiable and verifiable lies and contradictions and betrayals that seem to characterize his post military career. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/132 "2004-10-04T03:46:27Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Wow, talk about splitting hairs. There is a pretty huge difference, Sam, betwene saying “many officers knew about war crimes” (which is indisputably true, so why would he be condemned for saying it?) and suggesting that the chain of command was authorizing war crimes. If you’ve been in the Army, you know that the term “chain of command” has a pretty specific meaning. It doesn’t just mean “some guys above my rank knew what was going on.” It suggests that what was going on was a matter of organizational policy. That’s very different from just admitting that a lot of officers were AWARE war crimes were being committed. I’ve stayed away from this topic, but it’s time to say something. Sam, you’re a pretty smart and decent guy, all in all, despite what some lesser lights say. You are very, very partisan, though, and I think you’re being led down a rat hole here because you’re not using your peripheral vision, metaphorically speaking. If you would step back for a moment and look at this entire issue, surely you can see that this Swift Boat thing is… well, really, really pathetic. The details of Kerry’s service are being examined in increasingly minute terms to the point that it’s now reached a level of total absurdity. You’re at the point now where you are trying to argue that “well, Kerry WAS injured in the arm, but it wasn’t enough to merit a Purple Heart because it was just a bruise, even though one official record does say he needed treatment.” Good, solid issues do not become nitpicky train wrecks like this thread. Dude, when you’ve gotten to that point, there is no longer a strategic objective to gain. I think it’s time you accepted that the Swift Boat thing is partisan bullshit - just like a lot of accusations about George Bush not showing up for this or that medical that nobody at the time appeared to give a rat’s ass about - and really is not worth pursuing. It’s over, and it’s time to start talking about real issues. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/133 "2004-10-04T03:53:27Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m not looking at this thing in a vaccum but as just one in a long line of identifiable and verifiable lies and contradictions and betrayals that seem to characterize his post military career. Would it be to much to ask you collect those “identifiable and verifiable lies” and present them (preferably in a bullet list format) together with your verifications of them being lies? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/134 "2004-10-04T03:53:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s over, and it’s time to start talking about real issues. Why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/135 "2004-10-04T03:56:01Z")
…and “Because the Swift Bullshitters For Bush said so” is _not_ a valid verification. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/136 "2004-10-04T04:02:48Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Wow, talk about splitting hairs. It’s not splitting hairs to differentiate between the actions or inaction of a number of individuals at various levels of command (crimes committed “with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command”) and army-wide policy (in your words, “the full knowledge and approval of the chain of command”). This is the difference between Lt Calley and My Lai and the entire German chain of command and the Holocaust. This is the difference between the actions of the Tiger Force and the actions of Stalin’s ‘Gulag Archipelago’. It’s a pretty big fucking difference. Lt Kerry did not say that the chain of command knew of and ordered war crimes, as you claim. Lt Kerry was correct. Your claim about his statement was wrong and I believe it was dishonest. Please withdraw it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnFowles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@JohnFowles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnFowles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/137 "2004-10-04T04:05:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve stayed away from this topic, but it’s time to say something. Sam, you’re a pretty smart and decent guy, all in all, despite what some lesser lights say. Hey thanks for the co-starring credit, pal! :dubious: > [@](#): > > You are very, very partisan, though, and I think you’re being led down a rat hole here because you’re not using your peripheral vision, metaphorically speaking. Sorry, I think this is to cordial a way to put it. There should never be made excuses for an intelligant men who allows himself to become ethically and intellectually corrupt over partisanship. Sam does exactly that all the time these days and maybe he has even stopped noticing it. The man needs a wake-up call. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/138 "2004-10-04T04:08:08Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > The criteria is what it is. Awards without a criteria for getting them seems pointless. I agree (it kind of goes without saying). But, if the SBVfT have a problem with soldiers receiving Purple Hearts for bruises, then they should try to modify the criteria such that only wounds with “lesions”, etc. will count towards the awarding of a Purple Heart. Kerry does not need to be involved, with the above situation. > [@Scylla](#): > > Maybe the Ace bandage is for the arm and that’s treatment. He also received X-rays, to determine whether or not the contusions indicated a broken bone. > [@Scylla](#): > > The Swiftees main point isn’t whether Kerry can still have his PH. The point is that Kerry was greatly exagerrating or telling outlright lies and contradictory stories, and behaving opportunistically. No, the swiftees have contended that Kerry received the PH through fraudulent actions, and _didn’t deserve it_. While “technically” they haven’t called for Kerry to give up his third PH, they obviously don’t think Kerry should have it. As for the “telling outright lies”, etc… he received medical treatment. Other people (i.e. witnesses) attest to his situation. You can’t lie about that. (Unless you have proof that Kerry forced the doctor to take X-rays, etc.) Oh, and I don’t think Kerry ever said (or implied) that _his_ boat was the one that hit the mine, causing the accident responsible for his contusion. Every time I have heard about it, it was “another boat”. Obviously, though, his boat was close enough to the explosion, to fling him into something. And if you want to contend the whole Cambodia thing (which I know you are already doing), I personally think that it _should_ be looked at “in a vacuum”, with regards to his Purple Hearts. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/139 "2004-10-04T04:13:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. It is **you** who have failed to read carefully and researched poorly, and must now bend over and feel the wrath of the meritaphorical rice bin of my logic which is about to explode in your ass. > > What I said was “I am not really aware of any **Swiftvets** claiming the shrapnel in his ass is rice.” The link **Sam** gives in his quote on post 12 refers to the idiotic point of the swifters and Sam. > [@](#): > > Unless I am gravely mistaken, Sam Stone is not a Swift Boat Veteran. No shit sherlock, I was not complaining about you saying that but only pointing out where the allegations came from. Your foolishness in this subject shows. > [@](#): > > So, my words stand correct, do they not? Who now, may I ask is the bender, and who is the bendee? I am glad you noticed that Sam and the swifters point there was idiocy. They are the bendees still, and now that I see you missing that simple point, I see you are taking the position. > [@](#): > > Well yes. And the point of the Swiftvets is that Kerry has told two other versions in which he was wounded earlier. That would create three ass wounds in a single day. > > all due to exploding ordinance, two in rice bins, and one from a submersible mine. That is one unlucky ass. Your allegations are accumulative; the number of wounds is not, you pea brain. > [@](#): > > Sounds like a harsh form of triage to me. Ever heard the term “straw man” > [@](#): > > If my ass had been shrapnelized twice by exploding rice bins and grenade fragments and once from a mine, I doubt mine would look so good. Maybe what the medic meant was that he had no ass left and therefore there was nothing left to treat? This would coincide with my idea of the results produced by a hatrick of exploding anal ordinance. I challenge you to sit on a single grenade and fair so well. On the other hand, Kerry did claim his call sign was “iron jaw.” Perhaps it was really another portion of his anatomy and he was editing it for polite company? Conclusion: the doc was right, the butt wound was not a big deal. but a wound nevertheless. > [@](#): > > "Kerry was never wounded or bleeding from his arm. All reports including the medical reports, make clear that he suffered a minor bruise on his arm and minor shrapnel wounds on his buttocks. The minor bruise on his arm would never have justified a purple heart **and is not mentioned in the citation.** > > I have no idea whether the Swiftees are speaking accurately about the merits of the bruise. However, the fact is that the arm wound is not mentioned in any citation. Read the admiral note: “…another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm… (signed by Admiral Zumwalt).” I guess your sorry weaseling will insist the Bronce medal report had nothing to do with the purple heart one, even though they deal with the same action. Some research indeed. > [@](#): > > So, you see where the issue is here? That you ignore quotes and lie, yes. > [@](#): > > (Y’know, they still say that just seeing a box of Uncle Ben’s will cause Kerry to flashback to 'nam.) The dentist drill does the same to Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273/140 "2004-10-04T07:10:04Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > Looking over that nonsense, again, I find it extraordinary the amount of energy expended to assasinate Kerry’s character via this whacky attempt to poke holes in his war record. Just amazing. And after that we had **Scylla** going over the same territory like it was virgin. It was like the endless WMD debates all over again. The sheer pigheadedness is mind-boggling. Actually, it reminds me more of debating moon hoax believers. Just as you think you’ve gotten a few basic facts about exposure times or parallax or the sorts of radiation present in the Van Allen belts hammered into one thick skull, the next one steps up and thinks he’s bringing down both NASA and established science by asking “How come there are NO STARS in the photos, huh ? Answer that!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-swiftie-lie-gets-shot-down-this-ones-for-you-sam-stone/267273.md?page=8)