Another Swiftie lie gets shot down (this one's for you, Sam Stone)

[LilShieste]

@minty green

Sam claimed in the course of the previous 22-page monstrosity that Kerry’s “contusions” were only a “minor bruise,” and that medical treatment was not “necessary” for a “minor bruise,” thereby disqualifying him for the Purple Heart.

In response to those claims, I provided multiple authorities stating that “contusions” can be serious wounds and can require medical treatment.

Absolutely. And I want to point out, again, that the shrapnel in Kerry’s buttocks ALSO contributed to the awarding of this third Purple Heart. And that there is nothing wrong with how he received the wound (other than it was embarrasing, for him).

If Sam, et al. would like to argue that wounds inflicted from “friendly-fire”, or “destroying enemy equipment” should not merit a Purple Heart, then that’s a whole 'nother debate-- one that doesn’t even need to directly address Kerry, Dole, or any other soldier receiving a Purple Heart for the above reasons.

LilShieste

[Liberal]

@minty green

Sam claimed in the course of the previous 22-page monstrosity that Kerry’s “contusions” were only a “minor bruise,” and that medical treatment was not “necessary” for a “minor bruise,” thereby disqualifying him for the Purple Heart.

In response to those claims, I provided multiple authorities stating that “contusions” can be serious wounds and can require medical treatment.

As with all facts that do not fit Sam’s spin on this matter, Sam completely ignored it.

They can be, but so what? Dr. Doyle himself says that Kerry’s contusion required nothing more than a topical dressing, an ace bandage, and warm soaks. If that’s what you’re calling “medical treatment”, then our moms should be given their MDs.

[Kimstu]

Liberal: Kerry’s contusion required nothing more than a topical dressing, an ace bandage, and warm soaks. If that’s what you’re calling “medical treatment”, then our moms should be given their MDs.

This puzzles me. Since when is “medical treatment” defined as something only a doctor can do?

Seems to me that if a doctor treats your injury, that’s “medical treatment”. If the doctor tells you your injury doesn’t need any treatment and you should run away and play, then that’s not “medical treatment”.

Whether your mom can or does do either or both of those things doesn’t affect the definition of “medical treatment”, as far as I can see.

[GIGObuster]

And to expand on what Kimstu just said:

The most important thing to notice is that his butt wound was deemed by the doctor not to be important to merit further treatment, but his arm was. Once again, this rice thing is irrelevant, and a lie to say that “Without the ass wound, there’s no purple heart”.

[minty_green]

@Liberal

They can be, but so what?

The “so what” is that Sam is claiming Kerry was not entitled to the third Purple Heart because a “small bruise” does not “require” medical treatment, even though Kerry plainly received medical treatment for “shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm.”

[Liberal]

@Kimstu

Seems to me that if a doctor treats your injury, that’s “medical treatment”.

I suppose you’re right. If it is a doctor who sprays the Bactine, puts on the bandaid, and soaks your arm in epsom salts, you could call it medical treatment. So then, I’m sure you would say that when Bush sat still for five minutes at the elementary school, he was being presidential.

[minty_green]

@LilShieste

I want to point out, again, that the shrapnel in Kerry’s buttocks ALSO contributed to the awarding of this third Purple Heart. And that there is nothing wrong with how he received the wound (other than it was embarrasing, for him).

If Sam, et al. would like to argue that wounds inflicted from “friendly-fire”, or “destroying enemy equipment” should not merit a Purple Heart, then that’s a whole 'nother debate-- one that doesn’t even need to directly address Kerry, Dole, or any other soldier receiving a Purple Heart for the above reasons.

Or you could actually read the regulations that govern the awarding of Purple Hearts, which make it reasonably plain that Kerry would not have been entitled to a third PH for the ass shrapnel, as it was a result of his own negligence and not incurred “in the heat of battle.” Observe:

6. It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of “friendly fire” in the “heat of battle” will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the “friendly” projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.

The awarding of the PH does appear to be rather discretionary with the commanding officers, however.

http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm

[minty_green]

Also:

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows: . . .

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

[Sam_Stone]

From, FactCheck.org
Quote:
In any case, even a “friendly fire” injury can qualify for a purple heart “as long as the ‘friendly’ projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment,” according to the website of the Military Order of the Purple Heart. All agree that rice was being destroyed that day on the assumption that it otherwise might feed Viet Cong fighters.

The man did not receive his third Purple Heart, under “fraudulent circumstances”, which is what the SBVfT are arguing. Case closed. Let’s move on.

Factcheck is wrong. I posted the requirements for the purple heart in a GD thread. In fact, I’ve posted it twice. Cited directly from the U.S. Navy’s web site. A purple heart is only to be awarded for self-inflicted injuries if the injury is sustained while directly engaging the enemy in combat. In other words, if you throw a grenade at a guy trying to kill you, and you take some of your own grenade shrapnel, that’s fine. If you toss a grenade in a pile of rice when there are no actually enemy forces around, and you wound yourself, you do not get a purple heart.

Go read the cite. I’m not going to bother posting it again, since I’ve done so twice now and it’s clear that my opponents haven’t bothered to read it either time.

[GIGObuster]

@Liberal

I suppose you’re right. If it is a doctor who sprays the Bactine, puts on the bandaid, and soaks your arm in epsom salts, you could call it medical treatment. So then, I’m sure you would say that when Bush sat still for five minutes at the elementary school, he was being presidential.

No, Only if a mine had detonated next to him while going to the dentist…

And please note that in this context I am saying that he only needed to get bruised, but Virgin boots Bush never saw action in the past. Now, Bush avoiding a physical, now that is leadership I tell you!!!

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Sam Stone

Kerry claims a mine exploded near his boat, knocking him around and bruising his arm.

Wrong, dickhead. The NAVY claims that Kerry was wounded. Multiple other witnesses claim it. There is NO FUCKING EVIDENCE that Kerry wrote ANY of the reports.

Kerry’s actions during his Bronze Star incident are a matter of indisputable fact and do not remotely rest on Kerry’s words. The one Swiftie who claims he remembers sonething else has been thoroughly discredited by his own fucking medal citation, by the citations of two others (not just Kerry’s), by every credible witness and by every conceivable shred of Navy documentation. Your Swifties have been debunked. Learn to fucking live with it.

[Sam_Stone]

I also think it’s rich that you guys have attacked me for daring to contradict a decorated veteran while not having served myself, while all of you have felt no compunction against calling the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, a group filled with highly decorated veterans, liars simply because they dispute your political candidate’s claims.

This is a dispute between two groups of veterans. Both groups have purple hearts and valor medals. Taking either side means you are criticising a ‘decorated veteran’. But only in my case is it disgusting, I suppose. Your criticisms of the SBVT are perfectly valid and honorable, right?

Hypocrites.

[Kimstu]

Liberal: If it is a doctor who sprays the Bactine, puts on the bandaid, and soaks your arm in epsom salts, you could call it medical treatment. So then, I’m sure you would say that when Bush sat still for five minutes at the elementary school, he was being presidential.

False analogy. To say that when a doctor treats an injury, it’s “medical treatment”, is not to say that anything a doctor does is therefore “medical treatment”.

I’m a little surprised Lib, you are usually much sharper about logic than that.

[jacksen9]

@This Year's Model

It’s actually a large piece of rice. Mutant rice, which has been known to exist in Vietnam for decades. The Swifties will all swear to having seen mutant rice in large quantities. It only makes sense that it is mutant rice because the Purple Heart was undeserved. Therefore it has to be mutant rice. Prove me wrong.

I had the proof. An undercover botanist gave me a sample at a gun show. I walked out into a field and buried the evidence. Tom Brokaw has the hole story.

[GIGObuster]

@Sam Stone

I also think it’s rich that you guys have attacked me for daring to contradict a decorated veteran while not having served myself, while all of you have felt no compunction against calling the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, a group filled with highly decorated veterans, liars simply because they dispute your political candidate’s claims.

This is a dispute between two groups of veterans. Both groups have purple hearts and valor medals. Taking either side means you are criticising a ‘decorated veteran’. But only in my case is it disgusting, I suppose. Your criticisms of the SBVT are perfectly valid and honorable, right?

Hypocrites.

They are valid because, besides the reports and x-rays out there supporting Kerry, we also keep in mind the lies of denying a partisan angle coming from the swifters in this matter, you only ignore that by burying your head in the sand.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

We haven’t denigrated the Swifties’ service, have we? We haven’t said that no one has the right to criticize Kerry or call him names. We object only to the slandering of his actual service.

We call the Swifties liars because they have been proven to be liars…over and over again. Only a handful of these guys ever knew Kerry at all. none of them actually served as crewmates and only a couple of them were even within a mile of him during any of his medal incidents (Schachte, as we now know, was LYING about his presence during Kerry’s first Purple Heart). The Navy record and every credible eyewitness has completely refuted the Swifties at every turn. One of the authors of the book has turned out to be a Nazi Freeper nutjob. The other author is a longtime professional Kerry assassin and former hired thug for Richard Nixon.

John “Niedermeier” O’Neill has been busted cold lying about whether or not swift boats could go to Cambodia.

We have that other guy (Turdly? Nerdly? something like that) who has been served by his own fucking medal citation, by ungodly amounts of Navy documentation and by every single other eyewitness.

We call them liars because they are demonstrably so.

It looks like I might have gotten the PH wounds mixed up in my OP but the phrasing of the article sure made it sound like the metal shrapnel refuted the “rice” thing. However, am not going to apologize to Sam for two reasons- one, because Kerry’s third PH was still adequately justified by his arm wound and two, because Sam is still a dickhead.

[LilShieste]

Thanks for correcting me, minty, and Sam. I apologize for my ignorance (and lack of reading ability), regarding the Purple Heart website’s wording.

So I will exclusively stick to the arm injury (as others have already been doing).

@Liberal

If it is a doctor who sprays the Bactine, puts on the bandaid, and soaks your arm in epsom salts, you could call it medical treatment.

The main point I made in my previous post still stands: if you have a problem with the Purple Heart criteria, why are you taking it out on a veteran that received the Purple Heart… shouldn’t your ire be directed towards “correcting” the criteria?

@Sam Stone

This is a dispute between two groups of veterans. Both groups have purple hearts and valor medals. Taking either side means you are criticising a ‘decorated veteran’.

Also see above. Personally, I’m taking offense at the fact that other veterans are attacking the recipient of a Purple Heart, rather than the criteria for receiving a Purple Heart. That is truly disgusting.

LilShieste

[Scylla]

Diogenes:

I am not really aware of any Swiftvets claiming the shrapnel in his ass is rice. Do you have a cite for this?

What the Swiftvets cite is Kerry claiming he got shrapnel in his ass while blowing up a rice bin that day, as well as the Boston Globe biography. The Boston Globe biography is the one where he and Rasmussen “laughed their ass off.”

On page 313 of Tour of Duty Kerry gives a different version of the story:

"The Nung blew up some huge bins of rice they had found, as it was assumed, as always, that these were the local stockpiles earmarked to feed the hungry VC moving through the Delta smuggling weapons. “I got a piece of small grenade in my ass from one of the rice bin explosions and then we started to move back to the boats , firing to our rear as we left.”

The Swiftvets are making neither claim here, Diog. Since they are not making a claim it doesn’t matter what the x-ray shows. They are citing Kerry’s authorized biographies.

Reading both these stories, I would expect that Kerry had actual metallic shrapnel in his ass, not rice. I would in fact, be surprised if you could keep rice in your ass for thirty years as it’s not exactly inert.

So, whether you are pro-Kerry, or anti, this x-ray is moot. It shows exactly what both sides would expect.

The reason that the Swiftvets talk about this at all is because they assert that Kerry’ call letters are on the action report, and that that report states that Kerry received his buttocks wound when a mine exploded under his boat.

In fact, the mine exploded under another boat, which later had to be towed in. It also seems to me that underwater mines are designed to break the keels of ships, and don’t throw shrapnel out of the water. Of course, it could have been a piece off the boat that was hit by the mine that flew into Kerry’s ass.

Normally, that would appear to be possible. Unfortunately, Kerry already has two other versions of how he got wounded in the ass that day.

I suppose he could have fragged himself with one of his own grenades and taken it in the ass, and then the Nung coincidentally happened to frag him in the ass on that same day while blowing up a rice bin (Getting fragged in the ass twice in the same day by grenades blowing up rice bins has got to be some rotten luck. Of course, it does suggest he was keeping his head down.)

Next, even later in the day, Kerry’s ass is again fragged by the mine or a piece thrown off by the mine.

The swiftvets are pointing out that this chain of events is kind of hard to swallow.

If it is true, it’s a wonder that Kerry can sit down. That poor ass must have been hamburger after that day. His pants must have been tattered.
What a bad day.

“How’d your patrol go, John?”

“Two grenades, two bins of rice, and a mine, all exploded in my ass.”

“Wow, sounds like quite a day.”

[LilShieste]

@Scylla

Two grenades, two bins of rice, and a mine, all exploded in my ass."

“Yeah, dinner’s not sitting well we me, either.”

(I couldn’t help it…)

LilShieste

[Kimstu]

DtC: We object only to the slandering of his actual service.

And I have to say that this armchair medical nitpicking—It was only a widdle bruise! I never went to a doctor for my widdle bruises!—strikes me as especially unseemly. Geez, the guy was running around in a war getting shot at, and you are arguing that his fitness as a leader somehow hinges on whether you believe, based on your own amateur medical diagnosis decades after the fact, that he didn’t really need a doctor to put a goddamn bandage on his arm.

I’m sorry, but that’s just slimy. Jump all over the guy if you want to for his Congressional votes, for his campaign platform, for his “war hero” campaign rhetoric, for his hair, I don’t care. But sitting on your safe soft ass carping that he didn’t really need a bandage on his arm thirtyodd years ago is petty and vicious.