Yes–faith.
Are you maybe referring to my post where I proved beyond doubt that you are a damned liar? That would be post #113. Or are to much of a coward to try to defend your statements after they have been shown to be falsehoods?
No surprise there…
Tell me about it. Two threads on, and I’m still waiting for him to acknowledge that sometimes “contusions” “require” “medical treatment.”
What did Kerry say that was false? Please use specific quotes since you cannot be trusted to paraphrase accurately.
Scylla, The goddamn citation does not say a goddamn thing about a goddamn ass wound. If you want to assert that Kerry somehow fraudulently claimed an ass wound in order to get a Purple Heart then kindly PROVE it or shut the fuck up about it.
heh Yeah, I guess so. :o
LilShieste
The theory being put forth by the Swiftvets is that the contusion does not qualify, presumably because it must be an injury that requires and is treated in order to get a PH. A bruise isn’t treated. Therefore, it must be the ass wound(s)
Maybe. If the ass wound was received earlier in the day, it wouldn’t qualify since accidental wounds don’t count, only those received in combat.
So, the swiftees propose that 1. The contusion doesn’t qualify because it’s not treatable. and 2. The ass wound was not received in the course of action with the enemby so 3. The PH is not deserved.
LilShieste
[/QUOTE]
The problem with a guy like Sam Stone is that after lurking on these boards for as long as I have I know that he’s not nearly stupid enough to just lick up a disgusting Swift Vet distortion like “Kerry said the [whole of] the US Army were like the army of Genghis Khan” (my paraphrase) without knowing that it is very likely a misrepresentation of what kerry said. We know by now that he choses to ignorantly pass this on anyway, hoping he won’t get called on it, hoping that stuff like that will pass bye unnoticed.
But a lie is a lie, and if you gladly accept supporting and defending liars for the sake of hurting your political opponents, and in that process passes on those lies then you deserve to be called what you are.
Just one more liar.
Last time it was fuckspeak. Today it’s blasphemy.
I will talk about whatever I like.
I didn’t say the citation mentioned the ass. It mentioned wounds. In all accounts there are only two places Kerry was wounded. The first is the arm, a bruise. The Swiftvets maintain this does not qualify.
The second place is the ass. He got wounded there earlier in the day.
Do you propose he got wounded in the ass more than once that day, or are you proposing further undocumented wounds? Really, it looks like you’re not proposing anything, just talking smack.
To which I reply: then try to change the criteria. Don’t try to smear the recipient of the award in question.
The. End. There is no point in condemning Kerry in this matter, even if you (they) feel the need to condemn someone.
LilShieste
What the Swifties “maintain” is of absolutely no consequence. The Navy itself says that Kerry’s arm was wounded and was treated and that is sufficient justification for the Purple Heart. The ass wound doesn’t enter into it and the Swifties’ opinion is completely worthless.
The criteria is what it is. Awards without a criteria for getting them seems pointless.
Maybe, maybe not. Is being advised to soak your arm considered treatment?
I honestly don’t know. It looks like the other things are for Kerry’s ass. Maybe the Ace bandage is for the arm and that’s treatment.
Beats me.
The Swiftees main point isn’t whether Kerry can still have his PH. The point is that Kerry was greatly exagerrating or telling outlright lies and contradictory stories, and behaving opportunistically.
The first time I heard the Rasmussen story was when Kerry told it during the convention. The version he gives then implies that everyone else ran away and Kerry alone took the boat back and while wounded multiple times and bleeding from his arm and ass so that the gunnels were running with blood he yanked Rasmussen out of the water and escaped, being highly surprised that he was not killed by the withering enemy fire directed at him. This was the “No man left behind” story.
The truth is that nobody ran, his boat wasn’t hit by the mine, his ass was already wounded when he fragged himself with his own grenade earlier in the day, and the bleeding arm was a minor bruise.
I really don’t care about the medals. That doesn’t make bravery. That doesn’t make honor. I think Kerry behaved honorably that day. I think the way he lied about it later, and told multiple contradictory stories sucked. I think the way his stories aggrandized himself and belittled his fellow Swiftvets also sucked.
I think this story is representative, The Sampan incident follows the same pattern, The XMas in Cambodia follows the same pattern, and his indictment of his fellow Swiftvets after the war follows the same pattern. His 4 months and out follows the same pattern as does his suspequent betrayal of his fellow servicemen with VVAW, and the lies he gathered and passed on at the Wintersoldier Investigation and testimony.
I’m not looking at this thing in a vaccum but as just one in a long line of identifiable and verifiable lies and contradictions and betrayals that seem to characterize his post military career.
There is a pretty huge difference, Sam, betwene saying “many officers knew about war crimes” (which is indisputably true, so why would he be condemned for saying it?) and suggesting that the chain of command was authorizing war crimes.
If you’ve been in the Army, you know that the term “chain of command” has a pretty specific meaning. It doesn’t just mean “some guys above my rank knew what was going on.” It suggests that what was going on was a matter of organizational policy. That’s very different from just admitting that a lot of officers were AWARE war crimes were being committed.
I’ve stayed away from this topic, but it’s time to say something. Sam, you’re a pretty smart and decent guy, all in all, despite what some lesser lights say. You are very, very partisan, though, and I think you’re being led down a rat hole here because you’re not using your peripheral vision, metaphorically speaking.
If you would step back for a moment and look at this entire issue, surely you can see that this Swift Boat thing is… well, really, really pathetic. The details of Kerry’s service are being examined in increasingly minute terms to the point that it’s now reached a level of total absurdity. You’re at the point now where you are trying to argue that “well, Kerry WAS injured in the arm, but it wasn’t enough to merit a Purple Heart because it was just a bruise, even though one official record does say he needed treatment.” Good, solid issues do not become nitpicky train wrecks like this thread.
Dude, when you’ve gotten to that point, there is no longer a strategic objective to gain. I think it’s time you accepted that the Swift Boat thing is partisan bullshit - just like a lot of accusations about George Bush not showing up for this or that medical that nobody at the time appeared to give a rat’s ass about - and really is not worth pursuing. It’s over, and it’s time to start talking about real issues.
Would it be to much to ask you collect those “identifiable and verifiable lies” and present them (preferably in a bullet list format) together with your verifications of them being lies?
Thanks.
Why do you hate America?
…and “Because the Swift Bullshitters For Bush said so” is not a valid verification.
It’s not splitting hairs to differentiate between the actions or inaction of a number of individuals at various levels of command (crimes committed “with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command”) and army-wide policy (in your words, “the full knowledge and approval of the chain of command”).
This is the difference between Lt Calley and My Lai and the entire German chain of command and the Holocaust. This is the difference between the actions of the Tiger Force and the actions of Stalin’s ‘Gulag Archipelago’. It’s a pretty big fucking difference.
Lt Kerry did not say that the chain of command knew of and ordered war crimes, as you claim. Lt Kerry was correct. Your claim about his statement was wrong and I believe it was dishonest. Please withdraw it.
Hey thanks for the co-starring credit, pal! :dubious:
Sorry, I think this is to cordial a way to put it. There should never be made excuses for an intelligant men who allows himself to become ethically and intellectually corrupt over partisanship. Sam does exactly that all the time these days and maybe he has even stopped noticing it. The man needs a wake-up call.
I agree (it kind of goes without saying). But, if the SBVfT have a problem with soldiers receiving Purple Hearts for bruises, then they should try to modify the criteria such that only wounds with “lesions”, etc. will count towards the awarding of a Purple Heart.
Kerry does not need to be involved, with the above situation.
He also received X-rays, to determine whether or not the contusions indicated a broken bone.
No, the swiftees have contended that Kerry received the PH through fraudulent actions, and didn’t deserve it. While “technically” they haven’t called for Kerry to give up his third PH, they obviously don’t think Kerry should have it.
As for the “telling outright lies”, etc… he received medical treatment. Other people (i.e. witnesses) attest to his situation. You can’t lie about that. (Unless you have proof that Kerry forced the doctor to take X-rays, etc.)
Oh, and I don’t think Kerry ever said (or implied) that his boat was the one that hit the mine, causing the accident responsible for his contusion. Every time I have heard about it, it was “another boat”. Obviously, though, his boat was close enough to the explosion, to fling him into something.
And if you want to contend the whole Cambodia thing (which I know you are already doing), I personally think that it should be looked at “in a vacuum”, with regards to his Purple Hearts.
LilShieste
The link Sam gives in his quote on post 12 refers to the idiotic point of the swifters and Sam.
No shit sherlock, I was not complaining about you saying that but only pointing out where the allegations came from. Your foolishness in this subject shows.
I am glad you noticed that Sam and the swifters point there was idiocy. They are the bendees still, and now that I see you missing that simple point, I see you are taking the position.
Your allegations are accumulative; the number of wounds is not, you pea brain.
Ever heard the term “straw man”
Conclusion: the doc was right, the butt wound was not a big deal. but a wound nevertheless.
Read the admiral note:
“…another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm…
(signed by Admiral Zumwalt).”
I guess your sorry weaseling will insist the Bronce medal report had nothing to do with the purple heart one, even though they deal with the same action. Some research indeed.
That you ignore quotes and lie, yes.
The dentist drill does the same to Bush.
Actually, it reminds me more of debating moon hoax believers. Just as you think you’ve gotten a few basic facts about exposure times or parallax or the sorts of radiation present in the Van Allen belts hammered into one thick skull, the next one steps up and thinks he’s bringing down both NASA and established science by asking “How come there are NO STARS in the photos, huh ? Answer that!”