# Another Tolkien thread: who wrote what in THE LORD OF THE RINGS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074 "2008-06-24T16:00:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/1 "2008-06-24T16:00:15Z")
And The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, of course. The smiple answer, of course, is that the Professor did. But that answer will satisfy only the uncouth. The rest of us know that Professor Tolkien was but the [translator](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_document) of the [Red Book of Westmarch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_of_Westmarch). While he added a few flourishes to make the story more palatable to modern readers, the actual composition occurred during the late Third and early Fourth Ages. The uncouth may also be surprised to learn that the books have more than one author. Like the Bible, they are the works of many hands and derive from multiple sources. Of the top of my head I can name six sources: - Bilbo Baggins (BB) - Frodo Baggins (FB) - Samwise Gamgee (SG) - Meriadoc Brandybuck (MB) - Anonymous scribes of Minas Tirith, hereafter referred to as GS (Gondorian Source); and - Anonmymous Hobbit contributors, hereafter referred to as SS (Shire Source). It’s fairly clear that BB is the author of The Hobbit, and probably Book I of LOTR. He may have written the opening chapters of Book II–everything up to the Fellowship’s departure from Imladris, at which point Frodo took over. But things get murkier from there. Any thoughts? I have my own opinions, but I’ll see if the thread gets any traction first. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/2 "2008-06-24T16:29:13Z")
Gimli son of Gloin is the view-point character for a big chunk of _The Two Towers_, during the chase of the Orcs. Also, I believe, when the party of Rangers is traveling the Paths of the Dead. Presumably he either dictated or wrote those sections, and one of the hobbits included it in the _Red Book_. Note that only mortals are view-point characters. Gandalf was apparently pretty close-lipped about his role, even to Frodo after the fact. All of his sections are given in dialog, ie, stuff Gandalf told someone else. Also, Aragorn is never a view-point character, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/3 "2008-06-24T16:35:43Z")
[QUOTE=Reno Nevada] Gimli son of Gloin is the view-point character for a big chunk of _The Two Towers_, during the chase of the Orcs. Also, I believe, when the party of Rangers is traveling the Paths of the Dead. Presumably he either dictated or wrote those sections, and one of the hobbits included it in the _Red Book_ [/QUOTE] Being a viewpoint character is not the same as being the author of a passage. Bilbo isn’t the viewpoint character for Frodo’s flight to Imladris, but I think it’s pretty clear he wrote it, having interviewed Frodo (and probably Aragorn and the three young hobbits) during their time in the the Last Homely House. > [@](#): > > Note that only mortals are view-point characters. Gandalf was apparently pretty close-lipped about his role, even to Frodo after the fact. All of his sections are given in dialog, ie, stuff Gandalf told someone else. Also, Aragorn is never a view-point character, as I recall This isn’t properly playing the game, of course, but I’d say the authorial reason that Gandalf & Aragorn (and Legolas) are never the viewpoint characters is that they are not novelistic protagonists. That is, they don’t experience character development in the same way as mortals, and they they’re held in the same sort of awe by the mortals as they are meant to by the reader. They’re not easy to identify with. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/4 "2008-06-24T16:55:43Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Being a viewpoint character is not the same as being the author of a passage. Bilbo isn’t the viewpoint character for Frodo’s flight to Imladris, but I think it’s pretty clear he wrote it, having interviewed Frodo (and probably Aragorn and the three young hobbits) during their time in the the Last Homely House. [/QUOTE] I guess I disagree with you there. I don’t see why Gimli could not have written those sections directly–there was contact between hobbits and dwarves, presumably for many years after the War. Frodo, or whoever, could easily have asked Gimli to write up his own experiences and included them in the Book. And, if a hobbit was just taking dictation, I still think Gimli should get some authorial credit. Also, Bilbo was obviously way too senile to accomplish much actual writing, certainly by the end of the War. I think Frodo was supposed to have written the bulk of the actual narrative during the (one? a few?) years that he was convalescent in Hobbiton. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] This isn’t properly playing the game, of course, but I’d say the authorial reason that Gandalf & Aragorn (and Legolas) are never viewpoint characters is that they are not novelistic protagonists. [/QUOTE] Really not playing your own game, there, Rhymer. Mostly I am just posting here to revel in participating in a LOTR thread before one of the Great Ones comes in and gives a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/5 "2008-06-24T17:06:01Z")
I believe that all of the elvish translations can be attributed to Bilbo. And I don’t think that anyone other than Bilbo and Frodo contributed before Frodo handed it all over to Sam upon leaving for the West… so I’d place **Skald** ’s other contributors as authors for the appendices, mainly. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/6 "2008-06-24T17:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=Reno Nevada] … Note that only mortals are view-point characters. Gandalf was apparently pretty close-lipped about his role, even to Frodo after the fact. All of his sections are given in dialog, ie, stuff Gandalf told someone else. Also, Aragorn is never a view-point character, as I recall. [/QUOTE] One part I can think of is when Gandalf and Aragorn climb into the White Mountains to find the new seedling of the White Tree. One of them must have related to Frodo what happened up there. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] …I’d say the authorial reason that Gandalf & Aragorn (and Legolas) are never the viewpoint characters is that they are not novelistic protagonists. That is, they don’t experience character development in the same way as **mortals** , and they they’re held in the same sort of awe by the **mortals** as they are meant to by the reader. They’re not easy to identify with.. [/QUOTE] Of course Aragorn is mortal himself. Long-lived, certainly, but mortal. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/7 "2008-06-24T17:29:57Z")
I agree with **Skald** as to the Red Book’s writers. I always presumed that Bilbo wrote most of _The Hobbit_ (later shamefacedly correcting the account of how he actually came by the Ring), and Frodo wrote most of _LOTR_, with later revisions and additions by Samwise. I don’t recall any other writer of the book being specifically mentioned. However, Tolkien did make passing reference to a Gondorian scribe, Findegil, who copied (but apparently did not add to) the Red Book more than a century into the Fourth Age, probably well after those estimable Hobbits had slipped this mortal coil. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/8 "2008-06-25T15:02:24Z")
[QUOTE=Reno Nevada] I guess I disagree with you there. I don’t see why Gimli could not have written those sections directly–there was contact between hobbits and dwarves, presumably for many years after the War. Frodo, or whoever, could easily have asked Gimli to write up his own experiences and included them in the Book. And, if a hobbit was just taking dictation, I still think Gimli should get some authorial credit. [/quote] I guess I didn’t phrase my response to your response well. I wasn’t saying that Gimli didn’t write anything; I was saying that the mere fact that he is the viewpoint character doesn’t mean that he wrote the section. > [@](#): > > Also, Bilbo was obviously way too senile to accomplish much actual writing, certainly by the end of the War. I think Frodo was supposed to have written the bulk of the actual narrative during the (one? a few?) years that he was convalescent in Hobbiton. I wouldn’t call Bilbo senile, just tired. I’ve already said what I thought he wrote. I tend to think that Merry wrote the the Preface; the bit about the tobacco is something he would have thought interesting but Frodo would not. The Gondor Source would have added the really out-of-place stuff, like the Three Hunters’ song mourning Boromir while Merry & Pippin were being dragged to torture, rape, murder, and rape. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/9 "2008-06-25T15:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=Lightray] I believe that all of the elvish translations can be attributed to Bilbo. And I don’t think that anyone other than Bilbo and Frodo contributed before Frodo handed it all over to Sam upon leaving for the West… so I’d place **Skald** ’s other contributors as authors for the appendices, mainly. [/QUOTE] If I didn’t make it clear, I WAS including writers of the Appendices in this discussion. I can’t imagine anyone but Gimli writing the story about the war in Moria, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/10 "2008-06-25T15:55:18Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] …while Merry & Pippin were being dragged to torture, rape, murder, and rape. [/QUOTE] [Hedley Lamarr] You said “rape” twice. [/HL] ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/11 "2008-06-26T03:47:24Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] This isn’t properly playing the game, of course, but I’d say the authorial reason that Gandalf & Aragorn (and Legolas) are never the viewpoint characters is that they are not novelistic protagonists. That is, they don’t experience character development in the same way as mortals, and they they’re held in the same sort of awe by the mortals as they are meant to by the reader. They’re not easy to identify with. [/QUOTE] I do think Aragon has a slight arch. One can certainly relate to him in the beginning of the Two Towers, he is loaded with self doubt, and even submits his leadership to the others because of it…something you probably wouldn’t see from King Elessar. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/12 "2008-06-26T04:06:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bootis] I do think Aragon has a slight arch. One can certainly relate to him in the beginning of the Two Towers, he is loaded with self doubt, and even submits his leadership to the others because of it…something you probably wouldn’t see from King Elessar. [/QUOTE] I think you mean “arc,” not arch. I’ll concede his moment of self-doubt at the begnning of Towers. But his submission to the authority of Theoden King isn’t due to any self-doubt. It’s because he’s in Rohan, where Theoden is sovereign; he’d have done the same thing as Elessar, and if, as Elessar, he and Eomer were together in Gondorian territory, he’d expect the same from him. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/13 "2008-06-26T05:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I think you mean “arc,” not arch. [/QUOTE] :smack: [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] I’ll concede his moment of self-doubt at the begnning of Towers. But his submission to the authority of Theoden King isn’t due to any self-doubt. It’s because he’s in Rohan, where Theoden is sovereign; he’d have done the same thing as Elessar, and if, as Elessar, he and Eomer were together in Gondorian territory, he’d expect the same from him. [/QUOTE] Ah, I wasn’t thinking about his submission to Theoden, though that is a good explanation for it. And looking back at the book, I guess “submission” was too strong a word, I seemed to recall Aragorn asking Legolas and Gimli to choose their next action, which didn’t happen. He merely said, after they chose to follow him, that they “give the choice to an ill-chooser” In any case, I do agree with your original assertion- I just wanted to nitpick that Aragorn did have his human moments earlier in the story, though at least not as ridiculous as the film’s attempt to have him be reluctant to claim the throne :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/14 "2008-06-26T16:04:45Z")
I would believe Merry and Pippin contribute to the Red Book of Westmarch (the final chapters of the Shire, their time with the Ents and the destruction of Isengard). Personally, I would treat LOTR as a piece of historical fiction (except for the parts which the Hobbits could have known). The events as outlined in The Two Towers and the Return of the King are as they are, but the fine grained details are probably wrote by the good Professor to make it an entertaining story - for example, probably Legolas and Glimi never had the game of tallying their total Uruk Kills - but it was historical fact that they were close friends, so Tolkien ‘invented’ it. How would anyone recall what they actually say in the heat of battle? Real history is full of misquotations and reconstruction as well. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-tolkien-thread-who-wrote-what-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/454074/15 "2008-06-26T16:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=CrazyChop] Personally, I would treat LOTR as a piece of historical fiction (except for the parts which the Hobbits could have known). The events as outlined in The Two Towers and the Return of the King are as they are, but the fine grained details are probably wrote by the good Professor to make it an entertaining story - for example, probably Legolas and Glimi never had the game of tallying their total Uruk Kills - but it was historical fact that they were close friends, so Tolkien ‘invented’ it. [/QUOTE] One of the neat little details of LOTR is the bit where Merry is greeting King Theoden at Isengard, and rambles off into a little discursion about the history of pipe-weed. Then when you get to the Appendices, there’s an excerpt from his book _Herblore of the Shire_, and it’s the exact same passage. So the obvious inference is that whoever wrote that section of \*The Two Towers \* also had access to _Herblore of the Shire_, and incorporated the passage from Merry’s scholarly work to add authenticity to the dialogue. So we are presented with the notion of a fictitious author using details from one fictitious work to add versimilitude to another fictitious work. I suspect that Tolkien may be the only human ever to attempt such an intricate metafictional in-joke. This is humor that would probably only occur to a professor of ancient languages.