# Another triumph for the faith-healing sect **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519 "2013-04-23T18:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/21 "2013-04-23T21:35:05Z")
Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn’t. For these people, it doesn’t. They should quit while… well, they should quit. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/22 "2013-04-23T21:40:37Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Hypothetical…let’s say the parents belonged to some kind of New-Agey health club, and the owner of the club convinced them that chanting and laying-on-of-iguanas would heal their kid. If the kid subsequently died from lack of medical attention, would the owner of the club have broken the law? Well there’s this case, he got time. > **[James Arthur Ray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Arthur_Ray)** > > James Arthur Ray (November 22, 1957 – January 3, 2025) was an American self-help businessman, motivational speaker, author and convicted felon who was found guilty in 2011 of causing three deaths through negligent homicide. > A former telemarketer, Ray taught Stephen Covey motivational seminars while employed at AT&T and claimed he later worked two years for the Covey foundation; however the company has no record of him as an employee or contractor. In 2006 he appeared on CNN's Larry King Live ... ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/23 "2013-04-23T21:45:56Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn’t. I sometimes wonder what Jesus would say if he were allowed to see where his church has gone. Old Lodgeskins’ various sighs inevitably come to mind. And now I’m imagining Jesus waking up in the crypt and mournfully asking, “Am I still in this world? I was afraid of that.” > [@TonySinclair](#): > > I know, but that’s not what Jesus said. Oh for the lava…NOBODY knows what the hell Jesus said! The “gospels” themselves are the closest you get, and nobody’s really sure who wrote them or how accurate their transcriptons were of stories told by guys who lived about a century after The Big Guy died. It’s hard enough to get a solid verbatim quote of Abe Lincoln or Mark Twain and we were paying close attention to them in their lifetimes. I’d be willing to bet Jesus said a lot of really cool and useful shit that never made it into print. Stuff like, “You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you’ll find you get what you need.” ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/24 "2013-04-23T21:56:48Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Oh for the lava…NOBODY knows what the hell Jesus said! But anyone who thinks the Gospels are unreliable is not likely to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. My question is not why rational people think that couple is crazy. My question is, why do Christians think that couple is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/25 "2013-04-23T22:07:09Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > My question is, why do Christians think that couple is crazy. Because, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, maybe a good number of Christians are capable of critical thought and consider the ancient texts to contain a fair bit of metaphor, alteration, mistranslation, etc. of generally wise and-peace-mongering advice? (see **April R** above for further clarification) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/26 "2013-04-23T22:21:54Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > On the other hand, fuck these people. Let them continue “healing” themselves with prayer and sooner or later they’ll extinguish themselves. We can only hope. [They’re **preparing** for that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull) Fecundity outpaces stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/27 "2013-04-23T22:48:58Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Because, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, maybe a good number of Christians are capable of critical thought and consider the ancient texts to contain a fair bit of metaphor, alteration, mistranslation, etc. of generally wise and-peace-mongering advice? (see **April R** above for further clarification) Unless by “a good number” you mean a very small percentage, you are claiming that mainstream Christians consider the Bible to be comparable to a self-help book by Dr. Phil. That is not what they believe. Mainstream Christians believe, based on what they read in the Bible, that Jesus is the Son of God, and even April believes that he will answer prayers that pass some sort of fitness criteria. So these Christians “capable of critical thought” see that the promises he made that can be tested are false, but they go on believing the promises that cannot be tested. In particular, they go on believing that faith in Jesus (except all the promises he made about healing) will give them eternal life, and that those passages are not metaphorical, and have not been mistranslated in every Bible version ever published, like the ones I cited have. What is critical about that thinking? ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/28 "2013-04-23T22:56:04Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > They clearly didn’t pray hard enough. > > Or they wore the wrong underwear, or ate shellfish that week, or something. Well, he’s missing his sideburns and she appears to have cut her hair, so there’s always that. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/29 "2013-04-23T23:24:50Z")
yyyeeaaahhhhh…I ain’t one, but I’m not ready to believe the majority of Christians believe they get to do magic if they just believe in it strongly enough. I’ve had people tell me to take medicine for thinking that way. I’ve said my piece, I should just go now. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/30 "2013-04-24T01:02:01Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > yyyeeaaahhhhh…I ain’t one, but I’m not ready to believe the majority of Christians believe they get to do magic if they just believe in it strongly enough. I’ve had people tell me to take medicine for thinking that way. I’ve said my piece, I should just go now. Good idea! I am going to follow your lead…right after this comment 🙂 Just as an attempt to try and inject some clarification into this conversation: I sincerely believe in the power of the laying on of hands in aiding in healing, but I also understand that faith is more than just sitting still and hoping for the best. When God says he will heal by faith, He is saying in my humble belief, that engaging in the laying on of hands is just one tool in the vast tool box of gifts He has given us and is to be used in conjunction with actually doing something about your problems. Sometimes He doesn’t heal in the way we would like, and people pass away form illness or injury, but in a way that is a release from long suffering. I was having early labor symptoms a month back. I got a blessing by the laying on of hands, but I also prayed about what else I needed to do. I continue to go to my OB, I have put myself on travel restrictions at work(I don’t want to be on a client call 3 hours from home and go into labor) and I have stopped taking a medication that the Doctor prescribed but when I told her I couldn’t take it since it was making me feel worse she agreed with me. When I prayed about these choices I felt what I believe to be confirmation from God that these were good choices. I am doing great at 34 weeks and the early contractions have subsided and everything looks good as of right now. That is what the power of faith means. You do all you can do to help yourself first then rely on the power of God to take you past the point you can yourself. You do not rely solely on laying on of hands or prayer, God never said, again in my humble belief, that prayer and the laying on of hands is the only path to healing. He said it was one of many ways, otherwise why would he give the gift of being able to heal to some very gifted medical practitioners and then not want them to exercise that gift? /end incredibly long explanation 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/31 "2013-04-24T01:20:12Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I sometimes wonder what Jesus would say if he were allowed to see where his church has gone. I think he’d be pretty confused at how many different kinds of Jews there are. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/32 "2013-04-24T01:30:26Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I thought Christians were also taught that not all prayers are answered? Doesn’t that contradict verse 24? I was taught that all prayers were answered. However, I had to remember that “no” was an answer. I was also taught that we did not get everything we wanted, but everything our souls truly desired. So basically, if I didn’t get what I prayed for, it was because I was praying for something I only thought I wanted, since obviously I would have gotten it if I REALLY wanted it. And people wonder why I’m skeptical of religion. ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/33 "2013-04-24T01:52:50Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Good idea! I am going to follow your lead…right after this comment 🙂 > > Just as an attempt to try and inject some clarification into this conversation: I sincerely believe in the power of the laying on of hands in aiding in healing, but I also understand that faith is more than just sitting still and hoping for the best. When God says he will heal by faith, He is saying in my humble belief, that engaging in the laying on of hands is just one tool in the vast tool box of gifts He has given us and is to be used in conjunction with actually doing something about your problems. Sometimes He doesn’t heal in the way we would like, and people pass away form illness or injury, but in a way that is a release from long suffering. I was having early labor symptoms a month back. I got a blessing by the laying on of hands, but I also prayed about what else I needed to do. I continue to go to my OB, I have put myself on travel restrictions at work(I don’t want to be on a client call 3 hours from home and go into labor) and I have stopped taking a medication that the Doctor prescribed but when I told her I couldn’t take it since it was making me feel worse she agreed with me. When I prayed about these choices I felt what I believe to be confirmation from God that these were good choices. I am doing great at 34 weeks and the early contractions have subsided and everything looks good as of right now. That is what the power of faith means. You do all you can do to help yourself first then rely on the power of God to take you past the point you can yourself. You do not rely solely on laying on of hands or prayer, God never said, again in my humble belief, that prayer and the laying on of hands is the only path to healing. He said it was one of many ways, otherwise why would he give the gift of being able to heal to some very gifted medical practitioners and then not want them to exercise that gift? > > /end incredibly long explanation 😉 As in James 2:17? > [@](#): > > _James 2:17, NIV_ > > In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. For most mainstream Christians, the works part would be the operative. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/34 "2013-04-24T02:18:12Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > The verse I quoted says, “they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover,” not, “they shall summon a physician.” They did have physicians back then. But empirically, you were probably better off relying on prayer rather than consulting a physician (not a surgeon, mind you) until when? 1850? 1870? 1900? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/35 "2013-04-24T03:18:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Have they run out of kids yet? > [@Carl\_Corey](#): > > No. They have seven more. > [@DCnDC](#): > > They’ve been taken away. Well, _that’s_ about four years after it should have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/36 "2013-04-24T03:57:54Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > because I believe that God answers prayers by showing us how to heal, fix, solve, etc. and we either choose to follow those promptings or stick our fingers in our ears. God will give us the means by which to heal, move mountains, solve problems, but it is through our own effort and relying on the strength God gave us.\* If this is by going to a doctor, than that is my answer. Sometimes he gives the answer of NO, when I ask for something because He knows it isn’t what I really need. God does not grant wishes, he isn’t a genie, and he gave us the ability to make choices. These parents made to choice not to seek medical care and their child died. They suck. > > - For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23 > > Keep in mind though I am Mormon (LDS) so my ideas of personal responsibility and free-will may be different than other Christians. So you teach your kids that, but not about Santa and the Tooth Fairy? Oooookay… ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/37 "2013-04-24T04:21:22Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > So you teach your kids that, but not about Santa and the Tooth Fairy? Oooookay… yep ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/38 "2013-04-24T04:46:06Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > But anyone who thinks the Gospels are unreliable is not likely to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. > > My question is not why rational people think that couple is crazy. My question is, why do Christians think that couple is crazy. Because most Christians don’t believe that the Bible is the literal truth and is really a bunch of stories that are meant to be taken for what they are, a stone age book trying to describe God. When they talk about healing it is about spiritual healing. Yes I knwo the fundamentals get all the press particularly in the USA but venture to Europe or Australia and you find a very different form of Christian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/39 "2013-04-24T05:08:59Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > When I prayed about these choices I felt what I believe to be confirmation from God that these were good choices. I’m sure the Schaibles felt the same way. That’s what’s so dangerous about religion. You can rationalize really bad decisions as God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/40 "2013-04-24T06:26:03Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I’m sure the Schaibles felt the same way. > > That’s what’s so dangerous about religion. You can rationalize really bad decisions as God’s will. Absolutely. Like April R joining this board. 😃 Or the Schlables (whatever) thinking they’re qualified to have children. That case in 2009 enraged me. It is entirely first degree murder, two counts for those “parents”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519.md?page=3)