# Another triumph for the faith-healing sect **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519 "2013-04-23T18:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/41 "2013-04-24T06:43:54Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Unless by “a good number” you mean a very small percentage, you are claiming that mainstream Christians consider the Bible to be comparable to a self-help book by Dr. Phil. > > That is not what they believe. Mainstream Christians believe, based on what they read in the Bible, that Jesus is the Son of God, and even April believes that he will answer prayers that pass some sort of fitness criteria. > > So these Christians “capable of critical thought” see that the promises he made that can be tested are false, but they go on believing the promises that cannot be tested. In particular, they go on believing that faith in Jesus (except all the promises he made about healing) will give them eternal life, and that those passages are not metaphorical, and have not been mistranslated in every Bible version ever published, like the ones I cited have. > > What is critical about that thinking? You are simply wrong about this. At least since the time of St Augustine (who was around in the 4th century AD, not long after the Christian Bible was compiled into something like its current form), standard Christian teaching has been that much of the Bible is not best understood literally, and, in particular, when its surface meaning conflicts with current science the wise Christian should accept the science, and look for a deeper, non-literal meaning, that is not in conflict with science, in the Biblical text. Largely for this reason, for most of the history of Christianity, reading of the Bible amongst lay Christians was discouraged by the Church authorities. Most Christians did not read the Bible and believe what they read there, they were told what to believe by priests who had been taught to interpret the Bible “properly” (or, probably more often, by priests who themselves had been taught what to believe and what to preach to their flocks by someone else at a higher level in the Church organization who was considered educated enough to read the Bible properly). For centuries the Catholic Church prohibited the translation of The Bible into vernacular languages, and discouraged laypeople from reading it, even in the authorized Latin version. Widespread reading of the Bible by Christian laity did not arrive until the Protestant Reformation (and even then, only amongst Protestants). The notion that every word of The Bible is to be taken as literal truth is largely a fairly recent invention (going back a century or so) of certain especially extreme Protestant sects in America. As an atheist myself, it saddens me to see so many atheists apparently buying into the idea that this aberrant brand of Christianity is the whole thing, or somehow the real thing. Of course such an extreme, irrationalist version of Christianity is much easier to refute than the more widespread, more nuanced forms that are closer to mainstream Christian tradition, but such refutations are unlikely to impress anyone. Rational refutations of Biblical literalism will not impress fundamentalist literalists, who have long since enthusiastically embraced irrationality, and they will not impress mainstream, traditional Christians who will justifiably regard the object of the refutation as a straw man that bears little resemblance to what they actually believe. The vast majority of Christians in no way approve the sorts of things done by the people being pitted in the OP. It is a perversion of Christianity, but one which seems to get as much or more support from atheists as it does from most Christians. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/42 "2013-04-24T08:30:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Thank goodness. They should never again have custody of children. Children hell, they shouldn’t be allowed to have _pets_ ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/43 "2013-04-24T11:21:04Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Absolutely. Like April R joining this board. . That wasn’t God’s will, that was my own rash decision! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/44 "2013-04-24T15:18:22Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > That wasn’t God’s will, that was my own rash decision! 😛 Well I, for one, am glad you did.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/45 "2013-04-24T15:28:42Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > You can’t prosecute religious leaders for teaching things that aren’t true Like “God exists”? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/46 "2013-04-24T17:25:07Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Well I, for one, am glad you did.🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/47 "2013-04-24T17:44:18Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > If you can’t believe Jesus when he says that believers will be able to heal the sick (or, as in the first cite, get ANYTHING they ask for, even something as stupid and pointless as casting a mountain into the sea, or killing a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season), then how can you believe anything else he says? He didn’t promise that every believer would be able to, or say that people should stop seeing doctors. In fact, on at least one occasion he did send the people he healed to the local health board so they’d be able to go through the procedure required in order to be declared healed. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/48 "2013-04-25T03:46:04Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by TonySinclair > > Unless by “a good number” you mean a very small percentage, you are claiming that mainstream Christians consider the Bible to be comparable to a self-help book by Dr. Phil. > > > > That is not what they believe. Mainstream Christians believe, based on what they read in the Bible, that Jesus is the Son of God, and even April believes that he will answer prayers that pass some sort of fitness criteria. > > > > So these Christians “capable of critical thought” see that the promises he made that can be tested are false, but they go on believing the promises that cannot be tested. In particular, they go on believing that faith in Jesus (except all the promises he made about healing) will give them eternal life, and that those passages are not metaphorical, and have not been mistranslated in every Bible version ever published, like the ones I cited have. > > > > What is critical about that thinking? > > You are simply wrong about this. > [@](#): > > The notion that every word of The Bible is to be taken as literal truth is largely a fairly recent invention (going back a century or so) of certain especially extreme Protestant sects in America. > > As an atheist myself, it saddens me to see so many atheists apparently buying into the idea that this aberrant brand of Christianity is the whole thing, or somehow the real thing. Hard to tell whether this is a deliberate straw man attack, or just very poor reading comprehension. I try to think the best of people, but it’s hard to understand how anyone who uses correct grammar can quote the part of my post you did, and then write such a non sequitur response to it. Anyway, feel free to come back when you can cite Augustine telling Christians to treat the promises that Jesus made about eternal life as metaphors, not to be taken literally, or when you can cite me claiming mainstream Christians take the promises he made about healing, let alone every word in the Bible, literally. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/49 "2013-04-25T03:48:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by TonySinclair > > If you can’t believe Jesus when he says that believers will be able to heal the sick (or, as in the first cite, get ANYTHING they ask for, even something as stupid and pointless as casting a mountain into the sea, or killing a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season), then how can you believe anything else he says? > > He didn’t promise that every believer would be able to [Yes, he did.](http://bible.cc/mark/11-23.htm) But thank you for at least attempting to refute what I said, rather than the opposite of what I said. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/50 "2013-04-25T12:45:24Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > [Yes, he did.](http://bible.cc/mark/11-23.htm) > > But thank you for at least attempting to refute what I said, rather than the opposite of what I said. Well that is easy enough to explain. 99.9999% (+/- .0000000001%) of us have some doubt about everything all the time. I don’t think any of us are perfect enough to have 100% confidence that something so incredible will happen thanks to our inherently skeptical human nature. Where there is doubt, then God gave us other ways to accomplish the task at hand. If faith alone cannot move mountains, get dynamite! ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/51 "2013-04-25T17:40:35Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Well that is easy enough to explain. 99.9999% (+/- .0000000001%) of us have some doubt about everything all the time. I don’t think any of us are perfect enough to have 100% confidence that something so incredible will happen thanks to our inherently skeptical human nature. Where there is doubt, then God gave us other ways to accomplish the task at hand. If faith alone cannot move mountains, get dynamite! If dynamite works every time, why bother with faith? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/52 "2013-04-25T18:17:26Z")
What if you have dynamite faith! 😉 Also, Jesus often spoke in metaphors and parables, using stories and examples to illustrate deeper meanings to spiritual truths. For example, from **TS** own cite: > [@](#): > > Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary > > 1. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed … he shall have whatsoever he saith-Here is the lesson now. From the nature of the case supposed-that they might wish a mountain removed and cast into the sea, a thing far removed from anything which they could be thought actually to desire-it is plain that not physical but moral obstacles to the progress of His kingdom were in the Redeemer’s view, and that what He designed to teach was the great lesson, that no obstacle should be able to stand before a confiding faith in God. > > Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary > > 11:19-26 The disciples could not think why that fig-tree should so soon wither away; but all wither who reject Christ; it represented the state of the Jewish church. We should rest in no religion that does not make us fruitful in good works. Christ taught them from hence to pray in faith. It may be applied to that mighty faith with which all true Christians are endued, and which does wonders in spiritual things. It justifies us, and so removes mountains of guilt, never to rise up in judgment against us. It purifies the heart, and so removes mountains of corruption, and makes them plain before the grace of God. One great errand to the throne of grace is to pray for the pardon of our sins; and care about this ought to be our daily concern. Even someone trying to trip up believers with “you aren’t a real (blankety blank) unless you literally believe the Bible/Koran/Talmud” can grasp the metaphorical teachings of Jesus and other religious figures. Or he is just playing dumb. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/53 "2013-04-25T18:30:26Z")
But these people aren’t treating it that way. To them, it’s literal, they believe they have enough faith to move mountains. Even without all that, dynamite still works. The faith part is unnecessary. Why bother with something that you already know from countless tries doesn’t work? Just skip ahead to the part with the dynamite and save some time. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/54 "2013-04-25T20:19:26Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Well that is easy enough to explain. 99.9999% (+/- .0000000001%) of us have some doubt about everything all the time. I don’t think any of us are perfect enough to have 100% confidence that something so incredible will happen thanks to our inherently skeptical human nature. Then what is the point? Why do Christians pray for anything, if the slightest speck of doubt makes their prayers useless? Why did Jesus give a dozen sermons on how wonderful faith is, if it only works one time in a billion? Besides, Jesus said in several other places that you only need a mustard seed’s worth of faith (i.e., a tiny speck) to get what you want in prayer. If you consider that a contradiction, take it up with him. Not only that, but there was a simpler time, before Lyell and Darwin and Spinoza, before even Luther, when most Christians had no doubt at all about their faith. There was only one Church in Western Europe, and while the rulers may have been cynical, the peasants had faith as pure as the driven snow. As Mr. Njtt so kindly pointed out, they weren’t even troubled by confusing verses in the Bible, because they didn’t read it; they were told what to believe by their priests (and just incidentally, those priests who had been consecrated by the power of the Holy Spirit, and who were the official intermediaries between the people and Jesus, took all but the most obvious poetry in the Bible literally, including a six-day Creation 6000 years earlier). When the Black Death struck in the 14th century, these perfectly trusting peasants with their childlike faith didn’t pray for something incredible, they just prayed for normalcy — for their families and friends to not die horrible deaths. But they died at the same rate as the heathens and pagans and Muslims. Jesus said that if you believe in him you get anything you pray for, and he said if you believe in him, you get eternal life. You have no grounds for taking one promise literally, and the other metaphorically, except that you can easily see that prayer doesn’t work any more often than random chance can explain. It’s just hilarious to see Christians tie themselves in knots over this. Atheist: Jesus meant what he said. Christian: NO HE DIDN’T!!! Well, except for the eternal life thing. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/55 "2013-04-25T20:40:34Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Even someone trying to trip up believers with “you aren’t a real (blankety blank) unless you literally believe the Bible/Koran/Talmud” can grasp the metaphorical teachings of Jesus and other religious figures. Or he is just playing dumb. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course “cast a mountain into the sea” is a metaphor. It’s a metaphor for “anything you ask for.” You don’t have to be especially bright to see that, because Jesus made it explicit in the VERY NEXT VERSE: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Jesus Christ** in Matthew Chapter 21 > > 21And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will happen. > > 22And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." What was that you were saying about playing dumb? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/56 "2013-04-25T21:38:07Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Well that is easy enough to explain. 99.9999% (+/- .0000000001%) of us have some doubt about everything all the time. I don’t think any of us are perfect enough to have 100% confidence that something so incredible will happen thanks to our inherently skeptical human nature. Where there is doubt, then God gave us other ways to accomplish the task at hand. If faith alone cannot move mountains, get dynamite! If that is the case, do you doubt your faith in Jesus Christ? What implications may arise from that? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/57 "2013-04-25T22:38:40Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I know, but that’s not what Jesus said. Biblical literalism is a fairly recent school of philosophy, and generally it’s not followed by a majority of Christian denominations. I think this is another “gotchya!” question to try and trip up people to prove some point about religion. If so, it’s been done to death. And either way, you need to study up on your religious history. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/58 "2013-04-25T23:23:55Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > If that is the case, do you doubt your faith in Jesus Christ? What implications may arise from that? Its more self doubt than anything. I think I can be faithful and have a healthy tendency to evaluate my beliefs at the same time. I think it makes faith stronger when you aren’t afraid to question it. And TS, like Guin said, same old same old. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/59 "2013-04-25T23:41:26Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > What was that you were saying about playing dumb? Why don’t you take your smug fucking attitude to a relevant thread and stop hijacking the shit out of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/60 "2013-04-25T23:58:24Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Its more self doubt than anything. I think I can be faithful and have a healthy tendency to evaluate my beliefs at the same time. I think it makes faith stronger when you aren’t afraid to question it. > > And TS, like Guin said, same old same old. April R. when I was taking classes prior to changing denominations and becoming an Episcopalian, I liked what the rector said about our church _“Being Episcopalian means you don’t have to check your brains at the door.”_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519.md?page=4)