# Another triumph for the faith-healing sect **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519 "2013-04-23T18:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/81 "2013-04-26T01:52:25Z")
Cite, Ambivalid? Is BigT going to show up next to tell me I’m being mean? Oh shit, stalker #2 beat me to the BigT reference! Snap! I do so enjoy the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/82 "2013-04-26T03:36:20Z")
I can’t even fathom how anyone could imagine these people would even THINK of following the rules of the lucky-ass 10-probation sentence they got in 2011. The kids sure as fuck should’ve been taken from them in 2011. From [Philly.com:](http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-23/news/38766013_1_the-schaibles-catherine-schaible-herbert-schaible) > [@](#): > > (in 2011) Herbert Schaible offered a few brief words of remorse and grief, then entrusted his family’s fate to a higher power. > > “With God’s help, this will never happen again,” Schaible told the court. Big fucking clue right there. Then: > [@](#): > > “When you were asked by police why you didn’t call a doctor, you both responded, separately, with the same answer,” Common Pleas Court Judge Benjamin Lerner said during a probation-violation hearing, referring to sealed statements the couple made to police. > > “Because we believe God wants us to ask him for healing,” Lerner quoted from the statements. “ **Our religion tells us not to call a doctor.** ” > > \ > > “It could not be clearer from your statements that you knew he was sick several days before he died,” Lerner said, “that he was getting worse and having problems with his breathing.” > > \ > > Common Pleas Court Judge Carolyn Engel Temin made medical care the top priority for probation. > > “You are to consult a medical practitioner whenever a child exhibits signs of being sick,” the judge said, “and you are to follow the medical practitioner’s advice to the letter.” And here’s the kicker for me: > [@](#): > > At the 2011 sentencing, Catherine Schaible’s own attorney expressed doubts that the parents would call a doctor if any of their children became ill. > > “I have some concerns personally about their ability within their faith or their willingness to proactively take their children to get medical attention,” attorney Mythri Jayaraman said then. :eek::eek: (editing mine) When your own fucking defense attorney is telling the court, the press that THEIR OWN CLIENT wouldn’t be able to take a child to the doctor BY CHOICE BASED ON A FAIRY TALE, what else do we need to take the kids away from believing idiots? We gotta put a fucking age limit on that book of retarded contradictions so we can at least have one generation of common sense in society. If you belong to any type of church like this one, you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids or even be allowed to take care of yourself for that matter. They broke probation by murdering another kid who only saw a doctor ONCE at ten days old, never since. Two counts of first degree murder each for both of them, godspeed. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/83 "2013-04-26T04:17:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I suspect that irreligious people are quite capable of rationalizing bad decisions as well. 😛 That would certainly be consistent with my experience. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Probably true, but at least when one doesn’t have [_God works in mysterious ways_] to fall back on, one is forced to use one’s imagination. Perhaps, but at the end of the day, it’s not always an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/84 "2013-04-26T09:56:47Z")
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: People are responsible for the content of their minds. These people committed two first-degree murders because of their particular beliefs. Now they have to face the consequences. And who the hell sentences murderers to probation? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/85 "2013-04-26T11:13:57Z")
As much as I’d like to see these parents go to jail for a really long time, it would be impossible to pin 1st degree murder on them. I would like to hear a criminal attorney chime in on what charges they think might stick, though. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/86 "2013-04-27T17:37:28Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#): > > I was taught that all prayers were answered. However, I had to remember that “no” was an answer. I was also taught that we did not get everything we wanted, but everything our souls truly desired. So basically, if I didn’t get what I prayed for, it was because I was praying for something I only thought I wanted, since obviously I would have gotten it if I REALLY wanted it. And people wonder why I’m skeptical of religion. But don’t you know it’s all part of a Plan? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/87 "2013-04-27T17:48:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I suspect that irreligious people are quite capable of rationalizing bad decisions as well. 😛 > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Probably true, but at least when one doesn’t have [_God works in mysterious ways_] to fall back on, one is forced to use one’s imagination. > [@outlierrn](#): > > Perhaps, but at the end of the day, it’s not always an improvement. Maybe not, in terms of being rationalized bad decisions, but I have to give “improvement” points for coming up with original rationalizations, instead of just recycling old ones. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/88 "2013-04-27T19:50:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Maybe not, in terms of being rationalized bad decisions, but I have to give “improvement” points for coming up with original rationalizations, instead of just recycling old ones. 😃 Also, one’s own rationalization doesn’t come with an pre-established support group the way “God works in mysterious ways” does. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/89 "2013-04-28T01:56:32Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Perhaps, but at the end of the day, it’s not always an improvement. Sure it is. Belief in God imparts a certainty to people’s convictions that makes it much harder for them to question their actions. I mean, just look at the story of Abraham and Isaac. The Bible tells us that in some circumstances, God might command you to murder your children. And that the proper thing to do in that situation is to carry out that order. Yeah, it turned out to be a fake-out in the end, but Abraham didn’t know that. He was ready to stick the knife in, and the Bible holds his unquestioning obedience up as a good and a right thing. I think the Bible (and the Abrahamic religions) would be better if Abraham had said “Hell no, God, screw you!” And God had said, “Exactly right, my son!” ---
**Author:** ![sidhechaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sidhechaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidhechaos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/90 "2013-04-28T04:28:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [They’re **preparing** for that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull) Fecundity outpaces stupidity. hopefully they’ll all inbreed to sterility. I’m in a betting pool that at least 3 if not more of the duggar kids will go gay. After all, the older girls have already been through raising a family and watching mom be a brood cow, if I were them I wouldn’t go anywhere near a dick. I’d go asexual first ---
**Author:** ![sidhechaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sidhechaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidhechaos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/91 "2013-04-28T04:31:02Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I can’t even fathom how anyone could imagine these people would even THINK of following the rules of the lucky-ass 10-probation sentence they got in 2011. The kids sure as fuck should’ve been taken from them in 2011. From [Philly.com:](http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-23/news/38766013_1_the-schaibles-catherine-schaible-herbert-schaible) > > Big fucking clue right there. Then: > > And here’s the kicker for me: > > :eek::eek: (editing mine) > > When your own fucking defense attorney is telling the court, the press that THEIR OWN CLIENT wouldn’t be able to take a child to the doctor BY CHOICE BASED ON A FAIRY TALE, what else do we need to take the kids away from believing idiots? > > We gotta put a fucking age limit on that book of retarded contradictions so we can at least have one generation of common sense in society. If you belong to any type of church like this one, you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids or even be allowed to take care of yourself for that matter. > > They broke probation by murdering another kid who only saw a doctor ONCE at ten days old, never since. Two counts of first degree murder each for both of them, godspeed. 😉 and mandatory sterilization so none of that conjugal visit shit makes any more kids for them to neglect to death ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/92 "2013-04-28T20:58:24Z")
> [@sidhechaos](#): > > and mandatory sterilization so none of that conjugal visit shit makes any more kids for them to neglect to death Hear, hear. Can’t wait for the autopsy to be done so they can be arrested and convicted. They can enjoy prison fine. It’s, what, 98 percent religious in there? Perfect. Here’s a new article from the [pastor of their shit church.](http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130428_Pastor_says_Schaibles_would_stick_to_their_faith.html) > [@](#): > > The First Century Gospel Church begins each service with notes of praise for God’s healing. > > Church members e-mail or text small prayers of thanks to Pastor Nelson Clark, who reads them aloud inside a rented hall in Juniata Park, between playing hymns on a keyboard. > > We thank and praise this man’s toothache . . . > > We thank and praise God for the passing of seasonal afflictions . . ." ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/93 "2013-04-28T23:48:45Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The vast majority of Christians in no way approve the sorts of things done by the people being pitted in the OP. It is a perversion of Christianity, but one which seems to get as much or more support from atheists as it does from most Christians. This sums up the view of every Christian I personally know and I know a lot. Sure there are bat shit crazy Christians who view the medicine as a devil but as said the majority of Christians world wide would view the parents as culpable in their child’s murder. FYI I am an atheist but do believe that some atheists will continue to hold back the cause of atheism as long as they think that the majority of Christians are literalests. ---
**Author:** ![madrabbitwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@madrabbitwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madrabbitwoman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/94 "2013-04-29T01:07:00Z")
I’m sorry but this was the first thing I thought of: After a frenetic week of hysterical meteorological predictions for a Category Three hurricane, the first of the dreaded raindrops began. The police sent out patrol cars stop house by house and encourage people to leave. One good old boy greeted the officer with sanguine optimism. “Mais, no. Ah grew up here. Mah daddy grew up here. His daddy grew up here. Dah Lord’s gonna take care o’ me. I done ax Him.” Nothing the officer could say would dissuade him. As torrential rains fell, the bayous began to rise and lap at the steps of people’s homes. Police patrols in boats went around collecting the previously reluctant and assisting them to shelter. Once again, the insistent good old boy maintained that he was going to stay put and that God was going to save him. The water levels grew higher and higher, so before long, the persistent hold-out had taken to his roof to wait. At this point, a rescue helicopter came around, throwing down a rope ladder and bull-horning to him to climb up. He shook his head and insisted that God would save him, thank you very much. Sadly, the man succumbed to the forces of nature and found himself in Heaven. He gazed reproachfully at God and ask why He had not saved him. God levelly returned his gaze and said, “I sent a patrol car, a boat, and a helicopter. What more did you want?” ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/95 "2013-04-30T07:43:38Z")
From same article I posted above: > [@](#): > > Pennsylvania’s Child Protective Services Law includes a religious exemption for instances in which parents neglect children’s medical needs because of religious beliefs. Those faith-based cases cannot be labeled child abuse - a categorization many advocates feel prevents children from getting needed services. They’re not the only state with cockamamie laws like this. I find it funny that its Virginia and Mississippi are the only states that DEMAND your children are vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/96 "2013-04-30T17:03:21Z")
Okay. _deep breath_ I’ve been off-and-on reading this thread, hesitant to share the story that’s currently affecting a loved one, but I think I should put it forth, just to vent a little. My sister-in-law (We’ll call Dianne) has a very close friend, we’ll call her ‘Carol’. Carol, a few years ago, got diagnosed with breast cancer. Carol is very religious, and refused to take doctors’ advice about the cancer, saying that Jesus would cure her. Last summer Carol took her family’s summer vacation money and gave it to a faith healer. Needless to say, the cancer didn’t get any better. A few months ago, Carol took out a loan on the business she owns and gave it to a different faith healer, but with similar results. Carol is now in palliative care. There’s nothing to be done for her other than try to make her comfortable. She still believes Jesus is going to cure her, and now believes that he has waited this long so that the cure will be all the more miraculous and convert even -more- people to his teachings. This would be bad enough. But Carol has a son. We’ll call him Ed. Ed has been homeschooled. Ed believes in the end-times, and thinks they’re coming soon. Ed has told my nephews that, because they’re not Christian, they’re going to hell (said in a pleasant, matter-of-fact, conversational way). Ed also has made plans to break into the local national guard armory and steal a tank when the tribulation begins so he can construct a Christian army to kill all the Muslims. The faith-healing icing on Ed’s particular cake is that Carol and Ed’s dad have told Ed that mom is -already- cured, and that she’ll be up and around any day now. There’s more to the story than this, but none of it delves into the faith-healing aspect. So I’ll leave it there. I’ll just end by saying that this is one of those few situations that I get angry about. The lies, the misguided faith, the (as I see it) suicidal stupidity… It’s just maddening. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519/97 "2013-04-30T20:58:04Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > Last summer Carol took her family’s summer vacation money and gave it to a faith healer. Needless to say, the cancer didn’t get any better. > > A few months ago, Carol took out a loan on the business she owns and gave it to a different faith healer, but with similar results. If you want to go to a faith healer, that’s fine. And if you want to heal people by faith, I guess that’s fine, also (although I’m a little confused as to why the type of Christian who rejects the RCC doctrine that a priest is necessary for the absolution of sins would go an intermediary for healing). However, since God sees every sparrow that falls and how much more will he keep an eye on you, I’m going to go out on a limb here and condemn faith healers who charge money. I’d condemn Carol and her husband, but desperate people do stupid things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-triumph-for-the-faith-healing-sect/656519.md?page=4)