# Another unarmed black guy shot by cops -- this time the cop is being prosecuted. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511 "2014-09-25T11:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/281 "2014-09-26T17:21:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Are you implicitly supporting her accusations of racism towards me? I explicitly endorse her statement that your position, in which you possess a preternatural ability to show nerves of steel and therefore everyone should be able to assess and plan for the reactions of others, appears to be born of an ignorance of the reality of others, including in particular, black people. > [@](#): > > Also, I used idiotic primarily to address ideas used by a group of people. You specifically said “you are a moron.” as a direct opener to your post specifically directed at me. I’m sure you’ll consider that weaseling, but I don’t care. Your statement was far more direct, insulting, and damaging to discussion. [Quote=Senor Beef] You idiots all sound like you’d deliberately quickly reach into your glove box unannounced just to say “I can do whatever the fuck I want, and to say anything otherwise is blaming the victim” [/quote] Ah, looking back at it in the cold light of day I can totally see how not-antagonstic that was. Clearly it was crafted to foster positive exchange of viewpoints, especially when paired with the completely reasonable restatement of others’ point of view that you concluded that with. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/282 "2014-09-26T17:28:36Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The quote in question couldn’t be more clear - “white Southerns of Columbia, SC.” That’s a very specific group of people. You can ask **Zsofia** , but my guess is that she wasn’t intending to take up the general white power defense you wanted her to. Fucking imbecile. You are a stupid, stupid man. You have been shown southern; you have been shown white; the remaining reference is to people who are part of the jury pool in SC. Do you need that reference re-posted, you pathetic asshole? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/283 "2014-09-26T17:29:24Z")
One thing that really puzzles about all the exhortations to move slowly, be calm, etc., etc. during police encounters is that they place the responsibility for managing those encounters of the very people who have the least experience in dealing with them. I’ve been driving in the United States for 14 years, and i’ve been pulled over exactly once (the officer was very nice, and let me off with a warning). Many people never get pulled over even once, and the vast majority of the population probably only finds themselves in this situation a few times in their lives. Cops, on the other hand, come into contact with members of the public, especially those driving vehicles, hundreds or even thousands of times in their careers. If i were a cop, and if i were worried about the dangers of sudden movements, i would think about what i could do to minimize such incidents, and the misunderstandings that might arise from them. Here’s a possible way to handle the situation that inspired this thread: > [@](#): > > **Cop:** Do you have your license in your pocket, or is it in the car? > > **Driver:** It’s in my wallet, in the car. > > **Cop:** Where’s your wallet. > > **Driver:** In the center console. > > \*\*Cop: \*\*OK, i’m going to come over to the car, and when i tell you, i’d like you to reach inside the car with one hand and bring out the wallet. > > /scene Pretty fucking simple really. Takes an extra five seconds, and puts the burden of controlling the situation—_before_ it reaches “Shoot another Black Man” stage—where it belongs: on the shoulders of the professional police officer. And anyone who watches the video, and argues that the guy looks like he’s going for a weapon, is fucking delusional. Either that, or they believe that any effort to reach into a car in order to get something can reasonably be interpreted as “going for a weapon.” Because that’s exactly what it looked like to me: the guy turning to get something from the car, exactly as he had been told to do. The other day, i stopped at the gas station to fill my car. After exiting, i realized that i had left my credit card in the center console, so i turned and reached over to retrieve it. Filmed from outside the car, my movements would have looked identical to those of the guy in the video. I’m glad some of your superheroes weren’t standing by with your weapon at the ready. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/284 "2014-09-26T17:30:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is a lame-ass retort, dude. Just be mature and admit that you forgot you played the ad hominem card first. Cuz this stupid post just proves **Hentor** and **Ivory** correct. Oh for fucks sake, saying “you idiots [who believe this thing]” is an attack on that idea, saying someone has a stupid belief. Saying “you are a moron” is saying someone is of sub-average intelligence, a direct and personal insult. > [@](#): > > You have never stuck me as a racist, so I’m not going to consign that particular insult. But you are coming across as an apologist for a certain tactic of policing. There’s considerable overlap between racism and tough-guy law enforcement. So while the racist label may not fit, you need to be aware that you’re sounding like “that guy”. Regardless if that’s your intention. An apologist who says the cop jumped the gun, was unjustified in shooting, and was deservedly fired and taken up on charges? Listen, look at the early pages in this thread and look at the utter rampant stupidity directed at **Smapti** from people who are so averse to victim-blaming that they go to ridiculous lengths to make blame entirely binary. That’s the stupidity that made me participate in this thread. I otherwise don’t care. I’m not generally an apologist for law enforcement, and in fact I’m actually probably one of the board’s more outspoken posters on being against the militarization of the police and issues of the encroaching police state. How anyone gets anything “tough guy” or “racist” from me from my posts here, I have no idea. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I explicitly endorse her statement that your position, in which you possess a preternatural ability to show nerves of steel and therefore everyone should be able to assess and plan for the reactions of others, appears to be born of an ignorance of the reality of others, including in particular, black people. What the fuck are you talking about? When I say that when I’m pulled over, I act slowly and deliberately and communicate my intentions to the officer, I’m bragging about my “nerves of steel”? How in the world does that advice somehow specifically not apply to black people anyway? If you can find anything even fucking vaguely racist in my posts in this thread, you are detached from reality or simply have extremely poor reading comprehension. Nothing I’ve said is racially tinged, nor did anything I suggest for interacting with the police require “nerves of steel” Who the fuck are you even reading? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/285 "2014-09-26T17:32:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not even that. His actions were 100% calm and reasonable. What they were is _slightly unusual_. Apparently that means it’s partly his fault a cop freaked out and shot him. We’re being told on the one hand that cops have to be prepared for _anything_ (which is somewhat true), and therefore they can’t be expected to distinguish between various commonplace situations. Citizens, on the other hand, need to anticipate anything that might set off a cop and just sort of pretend the police are psychos. To me, a lot of it comes down to the use of words like “should”. If Smapti says “you should always move slowly and carefully around cops and verbally tell them what you are doing and keep your hands visible when at all possible”, does the _should_ mean that that’s the everyday reasonable way that every good citizen is expected to behave, kind of like “you SHOULD recycle”? Or is it “here is a set of actions that you can take which might very slightly increase your odds of survival in the extremely unlikely and unfortunate situation in which you encounter an incredibly irresponsible and trigger-happy cop”? If it’s the second, then there’s probably some technical truth to what he’s saying. But it certainly sounds like he’s saying the first. And of course in any case he’s focusing on the actions of the person who was unambiguously the victim, which is problematic for a variety of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/286 "2014-09-26T17:38:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? When I say that when I’m pulled over, I act slowly and deliberately and communicate my intentions to the officer, I’m bragging about my “nerves of steel”? How in the world does that advice somehow specifically not apply to black people anyway? He is saying that black people cannot be expected to react as calmly as you do when the police stop them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/287 "2014-09-26T17:39:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh for fucks sake, saying “you idiots [who believe this thing]” is an attack on that idea, saying someone has a stupid belief. Saying “you are a moron” is saying someone is of sub-average intelligence, a direct and personal insult. For fuck’s sake indeed. If people want to bash opinions rather than the people holding them, they usually say something like, “You guys are espousing an idiotic opinion” rather than “You guys are idiots for espousing this opinion.” You are an idiot if you can’t see the difference. > [@](#): > > An apologist who says the cop jumped the gun, was unjustified in shooting, and was deservedly fired and taken up on charges? And if this was all you were saying, no one would be giving you shit. But that’s not all you’ve been saying, is it? Because why else would people be giving you shit? If multiple people are misreading you, maybe you need to consider that you aren’t communicating effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/288 "2014-09-26T17:40:13Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] To me, a lot of it comes down to the use of words like “should”. If Smapti says “you should always move slowly and carefully around cops and verbally tell them what you are doing and keep your hands visible when at all possible”, does the should mean that that’s the everyday reasonable way that every good citizen is expected to behave, kind of like “you SHOULD recycle”? Or is it “here is a set of actions that you can take which might very slightly increase your odds of survival in the extremely unlikely and unfortunate situation in which you encounter an incredibly irresponsible and trigger-happy cop”? [/QUOTE] It’s meant in the second sense; it is interpreted in the first so as to maximize the opportunity to take offense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/289 "2014-09-26T17:42:20Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > No need for a perfect world; how about almost any other other western country? > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The trouble here with the autistic robot “he could have handled the situation better” approach is that none of us wants to live in a fucking world where anybody has to handle the situation better than that guy did, because he didn’t do anything wrong. He was fine, that’s what we’re saying. Everybody act like that around the police, and don’t anybody pull any guns on anybody, and we suddenly live in a _better world than this one_. We are not objecting to your criticism of the erstwhile dead man’s perfectly normal behavior on the grounds that it is impossible that he could have acted differently. We are objecting because it is not important what defensive measures he could have taken to make it super super unlikely that a police officer would manslaughter him. Because fuck that approach, and fuck that world, and fuck anybody who wants to just accept that this is the way it is. These pretty well sum up my feelings about this case. I’m lucky enough to live in a country (Ireland) where your average beat cop is unarmed, and frequently, unseen, and it’s still a basically peaceful and orderly place (now). So of course this kind of thing doesn’t happen here. But then I remember that cops in Germany, France, pretty much all of Europe, are armed, and these kinds of things don’t happen _there_, either. I mean no personal offense to Americans, but your country is at present a real outlier in social terms relative to its peers. You get the worst of both worlds - the repression of a police state _and_ extremely high rates of personal crime and violence. Nothing Mr. Jones did in the video would’ve drawn police firepower in Lyon or Copenhagen or Frankfurt. Only in America do some of you guys quibble over the details - _it doesn’t matter_. This is a crazy state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/290 "2014-09-26T17:44:06Z")
The thing is that the conclusion – the relevance or the importance or the point or whatever – of making the statement “they could have done something differently” is never stated. The **Smapti** s never say that the reason that it matters is that all people should act like that all the time, or that people who don’t act like that have failed morally or intellectually and deserve reprobation for it. They just make the statement and then wait for somebody to make the obvious inference about what the significance is, then they play defense. I never blamed the victim; all I said was they could have done X, Y and Z, and that would have resulted in A, B, C. They never say so what. **Shodan** is demonstrating this now. How dare you people draw the obvious conclusion of what I’m saying, when all I’m doing is making a factually accurate statement. It’s a PSA that I’m delivering coincidentally during a discussion of a high-profile situation in which my prescription for the victim’s behavior was not followed. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/291 "2014-09-26T17:45:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You’re a moron. Did you watch with the sound off or something? Your characterization of this is contradicted almost completely by the actual video. Even if it went down the way SenorBeef said, the cop STILL handle everything wrong. If he thought the dude was up to something, the next step in the escalation of force would have been to draw his weapon, point, and turn that Cop Voice of Authority dial up to 11. Not shoot. Until you see an actual weapon in a person’s hand, shooting them is never ever the correct response, in any police department in this country. The cop was just wrong, period. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/292 "2014-09-26T17:55:50Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? When I say that when I’m pulled over, I act slowly and deliberately and communicate my intentions to the officer, I’m bragging about my “nerves of steel”? > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’ve actually been in some situations where there was a real threat and I’m actually extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic. It’s almost like you don’t even know what you yourself have posted here. How else should we interpret this other than a claim to being “extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic” in the face of real threat? And the point is, that’s all well and good and if everyone were you, there \*might \*be less instances of jumpy cops shooting people. However, many people are, in fact, not you. Some possess qualities like normal levels of anxious reactions in the face of real threat, and some possess higher than normal levels of anxious reactions in the face of real threat. Still others are pigmented differently than you, and in a way that differentially draws the attention of law enforcement. Pretending like your solution is equal to theirs is to ignore the fact that their interaction starts out fundamentally different from its inception. > [@](#): > > How in the world does that advice somehow specifically not apply to black people anyway? It’s fucked up advice from the start, because the reaction to events like this must not be “how do we calibrate everyone to be like Senor Beef” but how do we calibrate the police to not be like this particular cop. > [@](#): > > Who the fuck are you even reading? I’m reading at least one of you, but multiple ones with varying retention of past authorship appear to be responding. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/293 "2014-09-26T18:11:37Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s almost like you don’t even know what you yourself have posted here. How else should we interpret this other than a claim to being “extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic” in the face of real threat? Oh please, there’s no way you’re not being disingenuous here. The response you’re quoting was in response to **Marley23** saying that he hopes I’m not a cop, because he feels that I’d be trigger happy. And I said quite the opposite, I’m not prone to this sort of panic. Neither are most cops, as we can tell by the fact that we don’t have 1500 people dying per day in these sorts of incidents. So I was saying that though I would regard his movements suspiciously, if I were in that cop’s shoes, like most other cops, I would not panic and start shooting at the guy. That’s not exactly a giant leap nor a big act of bravery. I’m just saying I’m not as prone to panic as an obviously unfit cop. Oooh, what a brag. You’re trying to conflate that attitude by suggesting that my separate statements about always being slow and deliberate and communicative with officers is what I’m referring to with my statement about being in the position of the officer. Those things were so obviously separated that there’s no way you can conflate the two except by dishonesty. So I’ve contributed A) When I interact with police, I communicate my intentions and try to be slow and deliberate as to assure them that I’m no threat B) Someone accuses me of being trigger happy and hoping I’m not a cop because then I would shoot anyone I pulled over, EVEN THOUGH I HAD JUST SAID HE WAS A BAD COP AND ACTED OBVIOUSLY INCORRECTLY. C) I say that actually, no, I’m not prone to panic like that cop and I wouldn’t have started shooting in that scenario. Somehow you are trying to turn that into “oh you’re bragging about how calm and rational you are, because you’re better than that black guy right?!?!?” when I wasn’t even talking about the fucking role of the civilian in this situation with those comments. > [@](#): > > And the point is, that’s all well and good and if everyone were you, there \*might \*be less instances of jumpy cops shooting people. However, many people are, in fact, not you. Some possess qualities like normal levels of anxious reactions in the face of real threat, and some possess higher than normal levels of anxious reactions in the face of real threat. So unless you’re some sort of stone-hearted tough guy, your natural reaction when being detained by the police is to make as many threatening moves as you can? For fuck’s sake, saying “slow down, communicate to the officer, try not to act hostile” is not some fucking navy seal shit that only the truly hardcore can do. It’s pretty much the advice written by everyone - the ACLU, police organizations, etc. > [@](#): > > Still others are pigmented differently than you, and in a way that differentially draws the attention of law enforcement. Pretending like your solution is equal to theirs is to ignore the fact that their interaction starts out fundamentally different from its inception.It’s fucked up advice from the start, because the reaction to events like this must not be “how do we calibrate everyone to be like Senor Beef” but how do we calibrate the police to not be like this particular cop.I’m reading at least one of you, but multiple ones with varying retention of past authorship appear to be responding. Again you seem to be operating under the lie that I’m saying the cop acted properly. I said he was right to be fired and go to trial. How can you infer from me an unwillingness to see cops to be better trained and/or screened? Except that, exactly as I detailed earlier, if you have a simplistic binary view of blame then you infer that if I think the victim could’ve handled the situation better, then he must be the one to blame and the cop gets off scot free. ---
**Author:** ![Neo-Calredic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/96bed5/32.png) [@Neo-Calredic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo-Calredic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/294 "2014-09-26T18:22:13Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > This isn’t related only to what you’re saying, but I’m going to take the opportunity to express how fucking sick I am of this lecture. It’s like a significant chunk of the population develops this weird autistic disorder where they forget that something being true doesn’t mean you have even a decent reason to say it, even though they would immediately remember it again if their wife said she thought about a dude from Game of Thrones while they were fucking. They forget anything exists other than technical logical accuracy, and once it turns on they convince themselves they’re fucking supergeniuses and have to talk down to everyone else about it. > > We’re not children. It’s not that we can’t figure out, unless you point it out to us, that if it had been the guy’s number one priority at the time, he probably could have convinced the officer not to try to manslaughter him. You don’t have to sit us down on the edge of our beds while we wipe the tears away and explain to us that you know, there can be multiple causes of the same event. We get it. We’re just not giving you any Sherlock Holmes only-rational-man credit for pointing it out. > > Congratulations, it is factually accurate to say he could have done something differently. The trouble is that god-damned nobody anywhere has ever said there was literally nothing he could have done – nobody ever says that during any of these “black and white” arguments – so pointing out that he could have done other things is fucking useless unless you’re saying this fact should have some sort of primacy in our analysis of what happened. We don’t walk around saying everything that’s factually accurate. Lots of things are true and yet we don’t say them. When we say things, we are ascribing importance to them. > > The trouble here with the autistic robot “he could have handled the situation better” approach is that none of us wants to live in a fucking world where anybody has to handle the situation better than that guy did, because he didn’t do anything wrong. He was fine, that’s what we’re saying. Everybody act like that around the police, and don’t anybody pull any guns on anybody, and we suddenly live in a _better world than this one_. We are not objecting to your criticism of the erstwhile dead man’s perfectly normal behavior on the grounds that it is impossible that he could have acted differently. We are objecting because it is not important what defensive measures he could have taken to make it super super unlikely that a police officer would manslaughter him. Because fuck that approach, and fuck that world, and fuck anybody who wants to just accept that this is the way it is. Well fucking said, J **immy Chitwood**. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/295 "2014-09-26T18:30:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Oh please, there’s no way you’re not being disingenuous here. Nope. When you wrote “I’ve actually been in some situations where there was a real threat and I’m actually extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic” I took that to mean that you were saying “I’ve actually been in some situations where there was a real threat and I’m actually extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic.” > [@](#): > > The response you’re quoting was in response to **Marley23** saying that he hopes I’m not a cop, because he feels that I’d be trigger happy. So, you were saying “I’m actually extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic” in a situation wherein you are hypothetically a cop, but otherwise you’re not “extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic”? Because I cannot discern anything from this that is not a claim that you are a generally extremely calm and rational person not prone to panic. To bring this back to the point, your advice to remain calm and rational and not panic may be limited by your perspective as a person who (at least situationally?) is extremely calm and rational and not prone to panic. And furthermore, your fail to account for other stark contextual differences from yourself that pertain to this interaction, foremost among them being a black man. But, if you meant something else, than I say truly you have a dizzying intellect, and it’s too many for me. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/296 "2014-09-26T18:37:18Z")
Okay, good, that clarifies it. I thought that perhaps you might just be really dense, but it’s clear now that you’re lying. I laid it out even more simply than it was in the first place, and you ignore that and continue your lies. Marley’s statement towards me was that I’d make a bad cop, because he presumably mistakenly thought I was advocating that the cop was right for shooting someone. In fact, I’ve been in situations before in which I was armed and someone presented a very real threat, and I handled those situations quite well. This is analogous to the cop’s role in this incident. I’m saying that I’ve actually been in a situation in which someone presented a greater threat to me than this victim did to the cop in this scenario and I remained level headed. This little aside is irrelevant to my advice on how to speak to cops when you’re being detained. This was only specifically in response to Marley’s accusation that I’d make a bad cop. My other statements, about how you should work to reassure the cop that he’s in control of the situation, and to make your actions as non-threatening as possible, really has nothing to do with how I reacted as an armed man in a dangerous situation. I never gave “advice to remain calm and rational and not panic”, as you state in your post. I only said that that’s how I reacted when I was in a similar (worse) situation as that officer. My advice as to how to handle being detained by police **has nothing to do with** that aside about what I’ve done in a situation similar to being in the cop’s role. I was saying what I do when I’m in the position of the citizen’s role. And nowhere in that did I say anything about remaining calm and rational and not panicking. I merely gave the extremely common sense and obvious advice as to not look threatening. And I don’t even know how to interpret your racial accusations. Are you suggesting that it’s useless for a black man being detained to act as non-threatening as possible, or somehow not being black affected the situation in which I was more analogous to a cop, or what? I can’t even understand what sort of bullshit racism you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/297 "2014-09-26T18:40:36Z")
is the phenomenon to do with the popular and persistent myth that is being a cop is a “very dangerous” occupation. Law enforcement historically has \*maybe \*a time or two cracked the top ten list of most dangerous professions (I’ll assume without knowing that 9/11 caused 2001 to be such a year, at least for firefighters). This myth is so persistent that it permeates the profession and, with some people, everything they do. And clearly, there’s largely a huge problem with sufficient pre-screening and training for those who go on the job. \*Interacting \*with a police officer is a far more dangerous thing. Indeed, as someone recently pointed out, you stand a far better statistical chance … regardless of your race or background or place of residence … of being killed by law enforcement than by a so-called or actual terrorist. (I’m willing to put it out there that there are more terrorists within law enforcement than there are terrorists elsewhere … very few of which would self-identify as “terrorist” or agree with anyone else affixing the label. In this and other things, it’s time for some in the U.S. government to more seriously noodle on the “domestic enemies” portion of their oath of office.) If cops don’t want people to mistrust them and fear them and wonder why it is they don’t get the principle task of “protect[ing] and serv[ing]” the public instead of themselves, then they need to stop whining about how unfair people are and instead start cleaning their own house. There’s only so much internal affairs can do, and these officers are ignoring the regulations that indicate they need to turn in the halfwits and fullwits who are unable to properly do their job. This thin blue line nonsense is the problem, as is the “there goeth I, but for random chance or one false complaint.” I think stories like these (along with many others having nothing to do with shootings) is why folks need to put their foot down or pull their heads out of their asses and start dealing with facts (not “facts”) and preferential grotesque justifications for humanity (which, we must recognize, as a species, escaped/eluded any Quality Control Department). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/298 "2014-09-26T18:43:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Okay, good, that clarifies it. I thought that perhaps you might just be really dense, but it’s clear now that you’re lying. I laid it out even more simply than it was in the first place, and you ignore that and continue your lies.[…] > My advice as to how to handle being detained by police **has nothing to do with** that aside about what I’ve done in a situation similar to being in the cop’s role. I was saying what I do when I’m in the position of the citizen’s role. And nowhere in that did I say anything about remaining calm and rational and not panicking. I merely gave the extremely common sense and obvious advice as to not look threatening. Nope, not lying in the least. Look, do you really not see how your advice, which I quote from you thusly: “… I act slowly and deliberately and communicate my intentions to the officer” is entirely dependent upon an ability to remain calm and rational and avoid panic? Do you not get that people vary in this ability as a matter of biology? > [@](#): > > And I don’t even know how to interpret your racial accusations. Are you suggesting that it’s useless for a black man being detained to act as non-threatening as possible, or somehow not being black affected the situation in which I was more analogous to a cop, or what? I can’t even understand what sort of bullshit racism you’re getting at. Well, you cannot even begin to fathom biological differences in anxiety, so I suppose expecting you to understand differences associated with race would be a bridge too far. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/299 "2014-09-26T18:46:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Nope, not lying in the least. > > Look, do you really not see how your advice, which I quote from you thusly: “… I act slowly and deliberately and communicate my intentions to the officer” is entirely dependent upon an ability to remain calm and rational and avoid panic? Oh come on. If you are unable to communicate your intentions or actions, or simply not move in a sudden and threatening manner, that’s not just the normal variation between behavior, that’s into low percentage mental illness territory. The guy in the video almost certainly acted as he did out of poor judgment, not a biological inability to do otherwise. FFS. And yes, you are lying. You took two things that were unrelated and kept trying to conflate them by merely repeating a quote out of context. That’s dishonesty by anyone’s measure. My response to Marley about whether I’d make a bad cop is completely unrelated to my advice and practices about how I act under detainment. You cannot in good faith somehow not understand that. > [@](#): > > Do you not get that people vary in this ability as a matter of biology?Well, you cannot even begin to fathom biological differences in anxiety, so I suppose expecting you to understand differences associated with race would be a bridge too far. Wait, so there’s a biological racial difference in how people response to the police? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/300 "2014-09-26T18:48:50Z")
Look, the reason why it makes sense to stand firm against the idea that the cop’s behavior was mitigated in any way by the behavior of this particular guy is evident in the video itself. When the guy is down and writhing in pain and asking why he was shot, the cop says “you dove headfirst back in to your car.” The message to other cops has to be a clear and unambiguous statement that no, this was not justification for shooting this guy. (Setting aside the mischaracterization of the guy’s movement.) Saying, “well, yeah, it kind of did lead to shooting this guy” does not help future scardey cops to avoid making the same mistake that this cop did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511.md?page=16)