# Another unarmed black guy shot by cops -- this time the cop is being prosecuted. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511 "2014-09-25T11:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/41 "2014-09-25T15:12:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Kid?” The man, Levar Jones, is 35 years old. > > A lot of people are saying (Here but other online places too) “well, at least this time the cop was arrested,” and indeed at least he was. But to my eye, the tape demonstrates problems that go well beyond arresting this guy. The police officer, Sean Groubert, who is fully aware of the existence of the dashcam, instantly draws and begins firing the moment Jones does something. He apoparently had his weapon holstered at first, so he wasn’t looking to shoot anyone at first, but the moment he cannot see Jones’s hands anymore - something that obviously happened because of what the officer told Jones to do - he freaks out, is screaming with fear in his voice, and begins running and shooting like a crazy person, spraying bullets in a public area. Thank God he only wounded Jones, but thank God he didn’t shoot someone else. Or hit one of the goddamn gas pumps. > > I mean, Groubert could just be a total psycho and maybe the other cops in his division are like “yeah, I knew something like this was gonna happen, that guy is crazy,” but a likelier story is shitty police training, leadership, and philosophy, the kind of training that puts way too much emphasis on pulling your gun and blasting away. Groubert is reacting in a way that to any cop I know where I live would seem almost Pavlovian in its irrationality but rapidity; suspect’s hands disappear, react in terror and kill him. Obviously I don’t know these people but it’s the sort of thing that makes me feel like this cop and his fellows are getting way too much training around “make sure you put a suspect on the ground with your gun if they do any of these things” and less training around moderation in the use of force. > > So, what I suspect will happen is the SC Highway Patrol will let Groubert go to trial and get convicted, when what they SHOULD do (well, in addition to letting Groubert go to prison) is ask if there is some underlying reason, related to the way their officers are trained, why Groubert did this. I agree with all of this, but I want to add that the only reason I think he MIGHT be convicted is because he fired a shot after the suspect had his hands in the air and was backing away. His first couple of shots were, I think it will be ruled, justifiable: the officer had some cause to feel in fear. Mind you, I’m just going by how this kind of thing had played out in my experience; here in Las Vegas many cops have suffered no consequences for shooting unarmed people; it’s always ruled “justified” as long as the cop can articulate the words “I was in fear that he might hurt me or someone else”. Handcuffed behind the back? Wearing sweatpants and carrying a basketball? Surrounded by SWAT team while wearing a pair of shorts and on your knees with your hands behind your head? Alone in your bathroom? Cops killed 'em all and our system said “good job, officers”. I don’t have a lot of confidence that this case (or the Jonathan Ferrell case in North Carolina) will result in justice being done, but at least with these two there’s a glimmer of hope. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/42 "2014-09-25T15:22:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably not – the “malice aforethought” would seem to rule out “attempted murder”. In other jurisdictions, would this qualify as attempted 2nd degree murder? Usually intent to cause seriously bodily harm is sufficient (and can be sufficient for first degree murder, for that matter), but it depends on the jurisdiction. The problem here is not lack of malice but lack of forethought. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/43 "2014-09-25T15:23:54Z")
Yeah, just saw this on [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) and came in here to start a similar thread. I don’t know if the OPs link/video is the same, but this one continues on with the recording after the shooting where the black kid (and yeah, he’s a kid to me…dude is only 35) is lying on the ground asking the cop why he shot him and the cop is saying because he moved fast getting back into the car :smack:. Good grief, what the fuck? This was after he told the kid to get his license, which he was in compliance to do. [QUOTE=Snowboarder Bo] I don’t have a lot of confidence that this case (or the Jonathan Ferrell case in North Carolina) will result in justice being done, but at least with these two there’s a glimmer of hope. [/QUOTE] Seems like an open and shut case, to me, and the cop is in jail atm awaiting bail at least from what the CNN report says. Going to be kind of hard to get around that video since it’s all there (though if you watch the video, the defense attorney is saying he ‘moved aggressively’ to get it). I’d say that this will be a civil suit as well as a criminal one, and I hope this kid gets a boat load of damages from this. Lucky the cop wasn’t a very good shot, and REALLY lucky that all those shots he fired towards the store and gas pumps(!!) didn’t hurt or kill someone else. Unreal. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/44 "2014-09-25T15:30:54Z")
See, this is why, when speaking to a police officer, you _always_ move slowly and state out loud exactly what you’re doing with your hands. That being said, this officer seems to have overreacted. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/45 "2014-09-25T15:32:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That being said, this officer seems to have overreacted. Y’think? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/46 "2014-09-25T15:32:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Seems like an open and shut case, to me, and the cop is in jail atm awaiting bail at least from what the CNN report says. Going to be kind of hard to get around that video since it’s all there. I’d say that this will be a civil suit as well as a criminal one, and I hope this kid gets a boat load of damages from this. Lucky the cop wasn’t a very good shot, and REALLY lucky that all those shots he fired towards the store and gas pumps(!!) didn’t hurt or kill someone else. Unreal. The officer fired 3 shots. The first two shots came while Mr. Jones hands were still in the cab of the truck and as he was removing his hands from the interior of the truck. The officer will be found to have been in compliance with his training and be found to have been reasonably in fear for his safety. It’s only the third shot, where Mr. Jones was backing away and had his hands in the air that Officer Groubert might be convicted for, as that one is going to be hard (but not impossible) to spin. I reckon the defense will focus on it happening very quickly and that Officer Groubert was still reacting to the threat he perceived. Oh, and why do I seem to be the only person who noticed that Officer Groubert did take action to position himself so that his shots were not fired towards the gas pumps, but merely towards the street. So he wouldn’t have blown up the gas station, just shot innocent people. Well, more innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/47 "2014-09-25T15:38:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Oh, and why do I seem to be the only person who noticed that Officer Groubert did take action to position himself so that his shots were not fired towards the gas pumps, but merely towards the street. So he wouldn’t have blown up the gas station, just shot innocent people. Well, more innocent people. Perhaps because he wasn’t. He was simply securing better cover for himself by placing the victim’s vehicle between the two of them. This guy isn’t one you would accuse of quick thinking. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/48 "2014-09-25T15:39:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The officer fired 3 shots. The first two shots came while Mr. Jones hands were still in the cab of the truck and as he was removing his hands from the interior of the truck. The officer will be found to have been in compliance with his training and be found to have been reasonably in fear for his safety. > > It’s only the third shot, where Mr. Jones was backing away and had his hands in the air that Officer Groubert might be convicted for, as that one is going to be hard (but not impossible) to spin. I reckon the defense will focus on it happening very quickly and that Officer Groubert was still reacting to the threat he perceived. > > Oh, and why do I seem to be the only person who noticed that Officer Groubert did take action to position himself so that his shots were not fired towards the gas pumps, but merely towards the street. So he wouldn’t have blown up the gas station, just shot innocent people. Well, more innocent people. Well, you are right…I thought it was more than 3 shots, but I went back and watched it again and it was only 3. But I don’t think it’s going to be nearly as cut and dried as you think wrt this guy getting off. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but I think you are going to be hard pressed to get a jury to watch that video and say anything but that this cop was clearly in the wrong and totally over-reacted. At a minimum I think that there will be a civil suit and that this cop will never work as a cop again, and I think that’s the best he can hope for. At worst he’ll be doing some time…he’s already done 3 weeks at this point, since from what I gathered bail has only recently been set. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/49 "2014-09-25T15:39:51Z")
Didn’t Mythbusters show that you can’t start gas fires with bullets? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/50 "2014-09-25T15:42:45Z")
The cop sounds like a modern-day Barney Fife (i.e., someone who should not be issued a gun). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/51 "2014-09-25T15:43:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, you are right…I thought it was more than 3 shots, but I went back and watched it again and it was only 3. But I don’t think it’s going to be nearly as cut and dried as you think wrt this guy getting off. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but I think you are going to be hard pressed to get a jury to watch that video and say anything but that this cop was clearly in the wrong and totally over-reacted. At a minimum I think that there will be a civil suit and that this cop will never work as a cop again, and I think that’s the best he can hope for. At worst he’ll be doing some time…he’s already done 3 weeks at this point, since from what I gathered bail has only recently been set. I agree that there will be a civil suit and that it will go poorly for former officer Groubert. 😃 And yeah, his career as a cop, in any jusridiction, is prolly over (unless he is acquitted, in which case, he’ll prolly be heading the state LEO union within 15 years). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/52 "2014-09-25T15:44:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The cop sounds like a modern-day Barney Fife (i.e., someone who should not be issued a gun). According to the CNN report he was trooper of the year last year, though no idea how you get that award. No idea why the guy was so worked up or jumpy…maybe psychological issues or home issues or who knows? Whatever, he clearly snapped and went completely off the deep end on this. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/53 "2014-09-25T15:44:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > At a minimum I think that there will be a civil suit and that this cop will never work as a cop again, and I think that’s the best he can hope for. . The jury will be made up of southern white people. This is probably the best _we_ can hope for. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/54 "2014-09-25T15:49:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > See, this is why, when speaking to a police officer, you _always_ move slowly and state out loud exactly what you’re doing with your hands. Cops are a skittish, but aggressive creature. If encountering a cop in the wild, do not make any sudden movements, bare your teeth, or make eye contact. Lowering yourself to a passive posture and making soft, medium-pitched vocalizations will convince the cop you are not a threat, and it will move on. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/55 "2014-09-25T15:54:46Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > Cops are a skittish, but aggressive creature. If encountering a cop in the wild, do not make any sudden movements, bare your teeth, or make eye contact. Lowering yourself to a passive posture and making soft, medium-pitched vocalizations will convince the cop you are not a threat, and it will move on. When my wife, who grew up on a dairy farm, was recording the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, she described how to behave around cops in crowd situations: treat them like large barnyard animals… no sudden moves; if they want you to move, move; and don’t get between them and whatever might spook them. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/56 "2014-09-25T15:56:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > See, this is why, when speaking to a police officer, you _always_ move slowly and state out loud exactly what you’re doing with your hands. OK- the officer asked him to get his ID. He reached in to get his ID. If he was reaching for a gun, and he calmly stated “I am reaching for my ID” how would that have been better? He was following directions- what did the officer think he was doing??? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/57 "2014-09-25T15:57:29Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > See how complying with a request for ID just makes everything go so well? > > :dubious: I was just thinking that ! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/58 "2014-09-25T15:58:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > See, this is why, when speaking to a police officer, you _always_ move slowly and state out loud exactly what you’re doing with your hands. I had no idea! Why do we need so many fucking rules to keep a trained professional from shooting you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/59 "2014-09-25T15:58:47Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > OK- the officer asked him to get his ID. He reached in to get his ID. “My wallet is in the car - I’m going to reach in and grab it now.” > [@](#): > > If he was reaching for a gun, and he calmly stated “I am reaching for my ID” how would that have been better? It wouldn’t have been, but I’m trying to give advice here on how to avoid being shot by an overreacting cop, not advice on how to shoot an honest cop. > [@](#): > > He was following directions- what did the officer think he was doing??? He saw the man he had just asked for a license quickly turn around and reach into his car, where he couldn’t see his hands, for an unseen object. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511/60 "2014-09-25T15:59:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I had no idea! Why do we need so many fucking rules to keep a trained professional from shooting you? Because, as this video demonstrates, not every cop is a “trained professional”. Just because you think a given threat shouldn’t exist doesn’t mean you should act as if it doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unarmed-black-guy-shot-by-cops-this-time-the-cop-is-being-prosecuted/699511.md?page=4)