# Another unpleasant Obama association **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982 "2008-10-15T01:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/21 "2008-10-15T01:29:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Translation: lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala… > > Whatever you say. Your the one with the burden, dude. You’ve provided no substance to respond to, just bald and frankly asinine assertions. I understand you’re upset that you’re going to lose and lose big, but this is truly laughable stuff. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/22 "2008-10-15T01:32:14Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > How about the [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) cite? It’s in Choie’s post. Can’t miss it. That’s a great reference for examining Corsi’s claims. These are different. There right there in the article. It’s not as easy as Obama…Kenya…Odinga…Corsi’s claims…debunked…all isues regarding Obama and Odinga debunked. Sorry. Surely you would find that logic sloppy if the accusations were turned to the other side. I hope you would, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/23 "2008-10-15T01:32:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if you’re not interested in responding to him, would you be so kind as to respond to me? Ooh, me too! Me too! Edited to add: Ah, he did respond, though not directly. Well, the point of the [factcheck.org](http://factcheck.org) cite is that they couldn’t find evidence that Obama endorsed Odinga. Simply railing against the Kenyan government doesn’t count as endorsing a particular opposition candidate; I rail against the Bush government, that doesn’t mean I endorse Nadar. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/24 "2008-10-15T01:33:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Translation: lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala… > > Whatever you say. Since I’m sure it’s just an oversight on your part, I’ll repeat the link that [Choie so kindly provided](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/corsis_dull_hatchet.html). I’ll also repeat the quoted section lest ye think the cite is not applicable. > [@](#): > > While there, Obama spoke to the assembled crowd. Raila Odinga, one of the two candidates running for president, was on the stage when Obama spoke. Corsi concludes that the event constituted an endorsement of Odinga. He goes on to attribute all the violence in Kenya to an elaborate Odinga plot. > > Corsi, however, offers no evidence that Obama actually did endorse Odinga. In fact, MSNBC reported that during that same trip, Obama also met with Mwai Kibaki, who was Odinga’s opponent in that election, as well as with opposition leader Uhuru Kenyatta. And Human Rights Watch reported that both Odinga and Kibaki (or their supporters, anyway) had a hand in the violence that followed the election. Let us know what you think. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/25 "2008-10-15T01:34:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Obama didn’t endorse Odinga. That’s a made up allegation. I didn’t say he did. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/26 "2008-10-15T01:36:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I didn’t say he did. 😕 That’s your whole OP! If you’re not saying that Obama endorsed Odinga, what the fuck are you saying? Or are you hanging this whole thing on the absolutely disingenuous contention that all we’re doing is _assuming, for the sake of argument_, that the article is accurate? > [@magellan01](#): > > I guess first one needs to decide whether they they Mr. Odinga is an odious person or not. No, actually, FIRST one needs to determine whether the article is accurate or not. You cannot simply declare by fiat that we are required to assume the article is accurate. You’re skipping a LOT of steps to getting to the truth here. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/27 "2008-10-15T01:36:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I didn’t say he did. Your cite is making the claim: > [@](#): > > The intent of Mr. Obama’s remarks and actions was transparent to Kenyans - he was firmly behind Mr. Odinga. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/28 "2008-10-15T01:36:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s a great reference for examining Corsi’s claims. These are different. There right there in the article. It’s not as easy as Obama…Kenya…Odinga…Corsi’s claims…debunked…all isues regarding Obama and Odinga debunked. > > Sorry. Surely you would find that logic sloppy if the accusations were turned to the other side. I hope you would, anyway. Looks pretty cleanly debunked to me. He met with Odinga and other figures while in Kenya. Corsi wants to stretch that into an endorsement and hopefully more. He offers no facts, merely drawing conclusions from his own opinion. What exactly is there to debate? Corsi: Partisan hack or Super Duper Partisan Hack? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/29 "2008-10-15T01:37:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The question that comes to my mind is what the threshold of significance for an association? The candidate met the questionable? The candidate spent a few days in conference/debate with the questionable? The candidate has worked closely with people who worked closely with the questionable? > > Did you have a standard in mind? What to you would qualify as a trivial Obama association (or a McCain one, for that matter) that would be too meaningless to mention? Good question. I would not seek to classify it as an association if Obama, or McCain, flew to another country and in the course of the trip gave a talk from a stage and some odious character happened to be on the stage as well. But if this character was a noted bad guy and was the one holding the event, I’d say a serious question begins, and needs, to be asked. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/30 "2008-10-15T01:37:57Z")
Dude! McCain brags about being friends with _Henry Kissinger._ And people are reaching for momentary associations of Obama? Anyone scary that we should be worried about these guys having ties to, is not in some other country or the Yippies or something, but in the DC establishment. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/31 "2008-10-15T01:38:48Z")
There is no OP. This is a witch hunt. Do you spend a lot of time reading to find something, anything at all that will make an anti Obama thread ? It looks desperate from here. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/32 "2008-10-15T01:40:26Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Dude! McCain brags about being friends with _Henry Kissinger._ And people are reaching for momentary associations of Obama? Considering that the McCain camp views being able to see Russia from ones porch and shaking hands with people at the U.N. to be foreign policy experience, meeting with somebody equalling forging a deep and personal bond with a person isn’t exactly a stretch of the logic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/33 "2008-10-15T01:40:38Z")
This is fascinating, in the same way that oncology is interesting. So, why? Why did The Obamanation back this wretched person rather than the other wretched person for nominal control of this basket case with a UN seat? Was it in support of Muslim hegemony? Some previously unknown advantage in American politics gained by association with Zimbabwe, (previously Rhodesia, currently fucked…) I know! Corsi has proved that Obama fell for the old Zimbabwean “money order/transfer” internet scam, so he’s stupid! Or what, exactly? There must be something more than this, no? No? C’mon, **Mag,** there must something dastardly here! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/34 "2008-10-15T01:41:06Z")
What **magellan01** willfully decided to ignore: Media Matters pointed to the Saint Petersburg times fact checkers: > **[Obama did not take sides in Kenya](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2008/aug/20/jerome-corsi/obama-did-not-take-sides-in-kenya/)** > > A new book — The Obama Nation by Jerome R. Corsi — attacks Barack Obama as a political extremist. Taken as a whole, the > [@](#): > > What we can confirm is that Obama has remained neutral in Kenyan politics, and did not support Odinga during his trip. Odinga attended some of Obama’s events while Obama was in Kenya, and clearly wanted to associate himself with Obama, but there is no evidence to indicate that Obama “openly supported” Odinga. (We previously reported on a letter from missionaries that alleged Obama contributed to Odinga’s campaign; we rated it Pants on Fire! wrong.) > > For this statement, we decided to scour the public record for evidence that Obama supported Odinga. We looked to contemporary accounts of the 2006 trip and found a transcript from an interview Obama gave to a Kenyan newspaper that directly contradicts Corsi’s allegation. > > Question: “As you prepared to travel to Kenya you were obviously conscious of two things. One was about being drawn into local politics. The other was the high expectations of what you could do for Kenya now that you are a senator. How did you handle both?” > > Obama: “One of the things we try to do is meet with all parties. I met President Kibaki, I met Uhuru Kenyatta, I was with Raila Odinga. We met the government, met the opposition and met other groups such as human rights activists. What I try to do is give a consistent message on what I think U.S.-Kenya relations should be, but not to suggest somehow that I think one party is better than the other. That’s for the Kenyan people to decide.” > > Also, Obama’s gave a high-profile speech the need for the country to move beyond corruption and tribal rivalries. This undercuts Corsi’s theory that Obama was motivated by his Luo tribal heritage. > > “Finally, ethnic-based tribal politics has to stop,” Obama said in his speech at the University of Nairobi on Aug. 28, 2006. “It is rooted in the bankrupt idea that the goal of politics or business is to funnel as much of the pie as possible to one’s family, tribe, or circle with little regard for the public good. It stifles innovation and fractures the fabric of the society. Instead of opening businesses and engaging in commerce, people come to rely on patronage and payback as a means of advancing. Instead of unifying the country to move forward on solving problems, it divides neighbor from neighbor.” > > Corsi states that Obama “openly supported” Raila Odinga. We found public statements from Obama during the trip saying the exact opposite. We found no other evidence to support Corsi’s statement, so **we rate his statement False**. This is a thread that demonstrates who is the one that is going lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala… if magellan01 does not pulls back only he is responsible of creating a killer of a thread: the one to point at wherever he still insists he should be trusted on being capable of verifying information. The only thing to thank him is that he just once again demonstrated Media Matters is more on the ball that any of the right wing sources. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/35 "2008-10-15T01:41:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There is no OP. This is a witch hunt. Do you spend a lot of time reading to find something, anything at all that will make an anti Obama thread ? It looks desperate from here. Is this one of those things where the OP will forever ignore whatever doesn’t fit his conclusion, and then make up the rules and terms as he goes, so as to further support his conclusion? OK. Been there; seen that. Done with this. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/36 "2008-10-15T01:41:56Z")
Maybe you could get the entire list of members at his church. Then you could go through them one at a time until you find a name that is threadable. Same church ,what a strong association. Just trying to help. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/37 "2008-10-15T01:42:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > On the other hand, even assuming you’re right, there was the option (further assuming one to be marginally better than the other) of not supporting either candidate. But is that option better? To offer an extreme example, if you got to choose between endorsing Hitler or endorsing Castro, you endorse Castro, don’t you? There’s a reason people still vote when faced with the problem of the lesser of two evils–it is better than not voting at all. In any case, I tend to doubt that Obama intended to endorse Odinga. I think the more plausible argument would be that he accidentally lent credibility to Odinga’s campaign. I think that would probably count as a lapse in judgment even if ethically it was the right thing to do because Presidential candidates probably shouldn’t get involved in foreign elections. The crux of that argument seems to depend on this sentence from the Washington Times piece, “The intent of Mr. Obama’s remarks and actions was transparent to Kenyans - he was firmly behind Mr. Odinga.” I would like to see something backing up that sentence before I accept the bald assertion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/38 "2008-10-15T01:42:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Your the one with the burden, dude. You’ve provided no substance to respond to, just bald and frankly asinine assertions. I understand you’re upset that you’re going to lose and lose big, but this is truly laughable stuff. I presented an article in a well-respected national paper. Now if you simply discount the article because of where it appeared, just say so and move on. Right now, we have the article in the WT and some hand-waving from you. The way I see it, if you want to play, the burden falls to you to disprove or counter what has been presented. Look at the cite **choie** supplied. That does a good job of countering Corsi’s claims. These are not identical so additional work needs to be done. Feel free to jump in and do it. Granted you’ll have to stop the hand-waving long enough to type. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/39 "2008-10-15T01:43:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I presented an article in a well-respected national paper. No, it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982/40 "2008-10-15T01:45:54Z")
magellan, even given that there is an association (which there really isn’t). We’re in the midst of the worst financial crisis since 1929, we’re at war in two countries (neither of them Kenya) against forces with an ideology unconnected to Odinga (or I assume you would have mentioned if Odinga was an Islamic fundamentalist). Do you actually think anyone cares about what’s happening in Africa? Even in 1994, when nothing like that was happening, we couldn’t be arsed to care about an actual freaking genocide. That’s what really gets me about these associations: a 1960’s radical and a bad guy in Africa? These aren’t things that anyone cares about right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-unpleasant-obama-association/467982.md?page=3)