# Another "What If" Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447 "2001-06-03T19:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/21 "2001-06-04T14:42:41Z")
If Christianity tjrned out to be true? Well, then, I’d be happy for all my Christian friends that their faith paid off. Way to go, guys! On the other hand, as a Jew I don’t really see how this applies to me. We have our own marching orders. Just because God says one thing to the followers of Christ, it doesn’t mean that the same instructions apply to the descendants of Jacob. That’s the whole concept of “Chosen People” for you. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/22 "2001-06-04T15:31:54Z")
Freyr I am not a Polycarp, but I play one on TV. > [@](#): > > If I’m wrong on these deductions, please point them out to me. I don’t know if “wrong” is the right word. Is wrong the same as distracted? Suppose a teacher asks, “If Farmer John pulls up 2 potatoes today and 2 potatoes tomorrow, how many potatoes will he have in total?” Suppose you answer, “Enough to make soup.” Is your answer wrong? > [@](#): > > Why are all the other false religions, especially Islam, allowed to exist? If other religions are false yet we can’t really know 'til after we die, doesn’t this mean that our souls are subject to some pathetic version of “Let’s Make a Deal” ?? I can’t tell which religion is right 'til after I die, then it’s too late. Are these the actions of a Loving and Just God? Since we’re just supposin’, suppose it _isn’t_ too late when you die. Suppose a mere book, the Bible, say, cannot contain an exhaustive compendium of God’s nature and will. Suppose that you may come to the realization of what Poly proposes and make your decision _when_ you die and see God face to face. Suppose that phonetic sounds and scribbles are irrelevant and that “Goombah-goombah” and “Jesus” might just be “a rose by any other name”. Suppose that God despises religion, in terms of a political machine, just as much as you do. Suppose Jesus said, upon hearing the plea of a Roman soldier, “I have not seen faith like this in all of Israel.” > [@](#): > > If Jesus is the only way to reach and understand God, doesn’t that mean that 99.99% of humanity has failed to get into Heaven or reach God because they never heard Jesus’s message? Human evolved into their present form some 100K years ago. Jesus’s message didn’t get to us 'til some 2000 years ago, and even then, it didn’t reach everyone on the planet 'til sometime in the 20th century. Does a loving God condemn people to hell simply because they were born at the wrong time and didn’t or couldn’t hear Jesus’s msg? Suppose time and space constraints are merely products of our perception. Suppose God is an Eternal Being Who is capable of presenting Himself to everyone who ever lived and ever will. Suppose He is not made of atoms, and that the universe and our lives in it are merely metaphysical anomalies. Suppose that Jesus visited every potential soul during His “vacation” (three days) past, present, and future, and in some metaphysical sense that we might not quite grasp with our brains, tells them “I love you.” Suppose Jesus said, upon hearing that His message is too terrible to bear, “Take my yoke upon you, for the burden I give you is light and easy to carry.” > [@](#): > > If the people who lived before the time of Jesus aren’t condemned to Hell or fail to reach God, then why was it necessary for Jesus’s sacrafice? Why the change of rules? Supppose God is more than just a trivial sky-dwelling floutist in charge of making the sun go up and down. Suppose Jesus did not come down through the ages to rule an anthill for a day. Suppose before and after are meaningless concepts metaphysically. Suppose Jesus said, upon hearing that He is crazy for thinking He knew Abraham even though He is not yet fifty years old, “Before Abraham was, I am.” ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/23 "2001-06-04T15:50:28Z")
I’d have to answer this “what if” similarly to the way I answered **Jersey Diamond**. Direct and certain knowledge that there is One God and that the One is connected with the teachings and example of Jesus Christ would cause no immediate changes to the way I have come to _try_ and live my life, although it would certainly prompt me to improve the way I communicate my beliefs to other people. Since the OP makes no assumptions “about churches, Biblical inerrancy, Papal infallibility, Jonathan Edwards-style wrath of God, what is or is not sin, etc.”, I assume I would only have the verifiable words of Jesus on which to base my _comprehension_ of the message of the One god Whom I’ve now apprehended.\*\*\*\*\* This being the case (and voice/image recording devices not having been available during Christ’s temporal visit with us), I would not only have to be extremely careful in choosing which verses are the actual words of Christ and which are later interpretations paraphrased or invented by apostles, I would also have to apply my new-found knowledge of God to my interpretation of those words which I trusted to be the Word actually communicated to us by Christ. Following this line of reasoning, then, I think that interpretation of the Word would be a long process for me, and one which I could not and would not trust to other people. Perhaps I would come, at some point, to disregard material things, but I suspect my spirituality would recognize (as I most vehemently do right now) that physical reality is of primary importance to physical beings. Buddha, I believe, teaches that the world is an illusion, but that the illusion is no less real for being illusory. I don’t believe that anything Jesus taught disputes this; the atoms may not be what’s real, but they’re real important to mortal men. This tells me that, although I should take heed (in this “what if” scenario 😉 )that my soul exists forever in the mind of the One god, my actions are important. I’ll say that differently; **acts** are the way in which my soul communicates. Evil is as evil does, and moral decisions _are_ made by the atoms of my brain, which means their realization cannot be perfect. If I am to be faithful to the message of Christ, I must have not only the humility to recognize the unimportance of my corporeal actions, but also the reverence to act as if they were the _only_ important thing. I must do the best I can to follow the consequences of my actions, to take responsibility for them and correct my mistakes wherever I have the acuity to perceive them and the power to affect them. I could go on and discuss this theme in the context of social structure, but then I’d be hijacking **Poly** ’s “what if” into a political thread, which I seem to be developing a bad habit of doing. (…and thanks for pointing that out elsewhere, **Lib** ) \*\*\*\*\*[sub]However, assuming my apprehension is complete, must I understand anything beyond that in order to live in a godly way?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/24 "2001-06-04T16:13:03Z")
What a beautiful post, Xeno! Remarkably, I can identify with much of what you said. I, too, determined to find out for myself, rather than trust others. (If you get time, you can check out my [testimony](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1351286#post1351286) in Chaim’s thread.) If it makes any difference, God will not leave you in the lurch as you search for truth. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever — the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” — Jesus ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/25 "2001-06-04T16:29:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > …I had actually given you _the evidence you needed to convince you_ that a (monotheistic, accept no substitutes, engaged in active godding) god exists, is interested in you particularly, and is in some way connected with the life, teachings, and doings of Jesus of Nazareth about 2000 years ago? Well, then, color me Christian because about two weeks ago I got such a proof in a way that I would have never believed possible. However, the true extent of my monotheism is pretty limited, and my opinion of Christ is not that he is the son of this One God(though that wasn’t stated as necessary for the OP if you read closely). But make no mistake: She is out there. > [@](#): > > How would this affect you? What if any changes would it make in your life? Were I to explain the convoluted mess in my head that led me to such a conclusion you might see why the changes in my life are largely illusory. I haven’t changed my external behavior so much as lightened my mood. > [@](#): > > How’s it gonna affect you? I laughed my ass off for about three hours. I think I said “of course” about 100 times. 🙂 The thing that has changed the most for me apart from mood is my quest to enjoy life to the fullest extent possible in some eudaemonistic pursuit of existence, coexistence, and friendship. Hell, I am a walking Jesus right now, except for the fact that I make no commandments other than a Crowleyism or two and “Be nice.” Oh, and I’m not a Jew. 🙂 I think people take themselves way to seriously and if my Discordianism-cum-atheism is going to get a few people to stop and think about the mess we’re in as a species then my work is done. Well, if I get them to think about that then go play a video game or read a book or watch TV or get a chess game going or _pursue some form of non-constructive but pleasureable behavior_ then my job is done. As a last resort they should at least take a series of quick pulls on a bottle of beer. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/26 "2001-06-04T21:22:28Z")
If undeniable, irrefutable proof of God’s existence were presented to me, I would not have the opportunity to make appreciable changes to my life, because my head would explode shortly thereafter. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/27 "2001-06-05T00:24:40Z")
Wow. That’s what happened to me! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/28 "2001-06-05T00:46:24Z")
\ ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/29 "2001-06-05T04:34:25Z")
I probably wouldn’t change my life much, as I already follow standards of behavior which don’t conflict with the teachings of Jesus much at all. About the only thing keeping me out of the Christian Heaven is my not accepting Jesus as my savior, but in this scenario I already believe in him (since I just read proof) and that’s about all I’d need. ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/30 "2001-06-05T11:22:32Z")
I would be extremely disappointed. The notion of such a supreme being is revolting to me. However, with such a proof, I would make every effort to truly convert. There is little point in spending an eternity in hell just to take a moral stand against such a supreme being. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/31 "2001-06-05T18:35:54Z")
Polycarp wrote, in the OP: > [@](#): > > …I had actually given you _the evidence you needed to convince you_ that a (monotheistic, accept no substitutes, engaged in active godding) god exists, is interested in you particularly, and is in some way connected with the life, teachings, and doings of Jesus of Nazareth about 2000 years ago? […] For these purposes, we assume that one way or another, the gist of Jesus’s message was recorded in his own words (duly translated) in the four Gospels. I’d turn to this monothestic, accept-no-substitutes God person, and say, “Hey, God, You were just kidding about that whole eternity-in-hell-for-sinners thing, weren’t You? I mean, I can’t imagine that a being such as Yourself would **ever** be so sadistically cruel as to actually **create** a place like hell, right? **Right?!?!!** ” And if He didn’t answer, I’d say, “You’re a really big poopy head, You know that, don’tcha?” and ask Satan for **his** side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/32 "2001-06-05T23:16:40Z")
Great, and thought-provoking, responses. Thank you all! Tracer, can I interest you in a Danish zombie? 😉 One thing I’ve noted throughout this thread is that about 40% of people brought along the evangelicalistic agenda – “Repent and believe, or you’ll burn in Hell.” I tried to write the O.P. so as to specifically avoid that – the few bits of Hellfire-and-brimstone preaching I know of Jesus doing were addressed at the Pharisees, for making religious rules to constrain other people (with loopholes for themselves, of course), and at those who failed to minister to “the least of these” in need. Does that clarification change anybody’s POV on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Glitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/0ea827/32.png) [@Glitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glitch)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/33 "2001-06-05T23:58:49Z")
If the supreme being as described by Christianity without an eternal hell is not something that I find appealing. Without the notion of eternal hell and with the proof you suppose in the OP I suppose I would simply ignore it and continue on my way. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/34 "2001-06-06T01:58:29Z")
Polycarp wrote: > [@](#): > > Tracer, can I interest you in a Danish zombie? 😉 Thanks, I’d love a piece of danish! (Or did an inside reference just go _WHOOOOSH_ over my head again?) > [@](#): > > One thing I’ve noted throughout this thread is that about 40% of people brought along the evangelicalistic agenda – “Repent and believe, or you’ll burn in Hell.” I tried to write the O.P. so as to specifically avoid that – the few bits of Hellfire-and-brimstone preaching I know of Jesus doing were addressed at the Pharisees, for making religious rules to constrain other people (with loopholes for themselves, of course), and at those who failed to minister to “the least of these” in need. Well, you **did** say that Jesus’s words (i.e. the Gospels) were supposed to reflect God’s actual nature. And that means I’d have to contend with this: “But anyone who says, `You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” – Matthew 5:25 … and this: “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” – Matthew 10:28 … and these: “And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,” – Mark 9:47, Matthew 18:9, Matthew 5:29 … to say nothing of this lovely tidbit from Luke 16:19-25, in which Jesus tells us about a man who was thrown into hell because he wasn’t a good socialist: > [@](#): > > "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. > > "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. **In hell, where he was in torment,** he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ > > "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/35 "2001-06-06T18:59:12Z")
**tracer** , you are making a similar “mistake” that I have oh so many times. Jesus said lots of stuff to lots of people. The question is, _what would he say to you?_ Now, again, I am NOT a Chistian but I have recently become convinced of a higher power in the universe, and Jesus (as well as Buddha and other “prophets” of existence) is related to this power _indirectly_. It is not possible (in my mind) to be anything but indirectly related. At any rate, it is easy to hate American government by looking at Eminent Domain laws. It is easy to hate pro-lifers by looking at the extreme minority who murder doctors. It is easy to disregard Jesus by focusing on any particular thing that is said. In fact, it is easy to disregard any philosophy, religion, or thought process by reducing it to a few phrases instead of taking a bit more of a holistic view. Jesus’s words were gospel to the people he said these things to. _But the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus_. Have _you_ heard anything from him? Or have you only focused on what he’s said to people long dead, in words “recorded” after-the-fact?[sup]1[/sup] I used to hate what I call personal religion until I realized that’s what it is, period. Yes, religion is contradictory. So is nihilism. So is early set theory. _So what?_ This leads me to **cervaise** who said “If undeniable, irrefutable proof of God’s existence were presented to me…” Hey, if undeniable irrefutable proof was presented to me about _anything_ I’d be impressed. Descartes noted that we can, quite simply, doubt everything, and Neitzce (i never ever spell his name right so I quit trying to remember) followed up on that quite a bit. Other philosophers have as well. Hume denied cause and effect. Kant agreed. I agree as well, _no “is” implies an “ought”_. Again, so what? If one offers you the tenuous set of physical constants which must exist by our science to allow the universe to exist as we know it as proof that something miraculous happend you would probably (as I often do) resort to the anthromorphic principle. I am not one to say, even still, that “faith” in the religious sense and “faith” in the science sense are semantically equivalent. I strenously oppose such a thought. But I stand here now and say that I indirectly experienced some consciousness which is in all possible ways on a “higher” level than me. In fact, it was my roommate who first experienced it. After about two weeks of arguing with him it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was, so far as we were concerned, repeatable. I would like to make an analogy here to quantum physics. When we do an experiment set up to detect particles we detect particles; when we do an experiment set up to detect waves we find, interestingly enough, waves. When we look for God with a tunnelling electron microscope or a treatise on the scientific method or advanced logic courses, we find, understandably, answers that correlate to that method of inquiry. So now I will extend polycarp’s question (if I may) by restating it (as strange as that may be). > [@](#): > > Suppose that I had actually given you the evidence **you needed** to convince you that a god exists, is interested in you particularly, and is, _in some way_, connected with the life, teachings, and doings of Jesus of Nazareth about 2000 years ago? For these purposes, we assume that one way or another, the **gist** of Jesus’s message was recorded in his own words. 1[sub]Now, again, I don’t think Jesus is the only way to God(dess). There are a million and one ways to God, in my mind, and Jesus’s path is one of them and surely it _could_ work and has made many people happy while on this mortal coil, and so has worked in that way. I make no claims yet as to an individual’s life-after-death as I have had no particular personal insight into that matter. I honestly don’t think it matters, but who knows, I used to hate pickles and mustard and lover ketchup, now it is the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/36 "2001-06-06T19:28:58Z")
erislover wrote: > [@](#): > > It is easy to disregard Jesus by focusing on any particular thing that is said. The thing is, it’s not just a few little particular things Jesus is claimed to have said in the Gospels that give me pause. It’s **most** of what Jesus said. From my reading of the Gospels, I do not see a great message occasionally punctuated by a few icky notions – I see a few nice ideas scattered through Jesus’s **main** message, which is[ul][li]Everyone who joins my cult will be richly rewarded when the Kingdom of Heaven comes around. Especially you poor folk.[/li][li]Everyone who doesn’t join my cult will be punished when the Kingdom of Heaven arrives. Especially those rich folk.[/li][li]Hurry up and join my cult right now, because the Kingdom of Heaven could get here any minute.[/li]You members of my cult need to provide a united front against those unbelievers out there, and contribute toward our recruitment drive.[/ul]… and if **that** turns out to be the true, revealed Word of God, then we’re pretty fucked, no matter **whose** side we’re on. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/37 "2001-06-06T19:45:25Z")
I **love** this! > [@](#): > > When we do an experiment set up to detect particles we detect particles; when we do an experiment set up to detect waves we find, interestingly enough, waves. It speaks to so much, like Tracer’s Pharasaic inferences about Jesus, and the various interpretations of the story of the Prodigal Son. “Whatsoever you sow, so shall you reap.” — Jesus Thank you, Eris. God go with you always. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/38 "2001-06-06T20:48:00Z")
The more I read **Erislover** ’s posts, the better I like them. Terrific points. And, interestingly, I was making almost exactly the same points in response to **Dr Lao** over on the Pizza Parlor at the precise time you were making them here. ::: “Twilight Zone” music begins playing ::: My own take on what exactly was going on in that “exclusivist” comment of Jesus is that it needs to be read in context, like most Scriptural texts. And it’s immediately preceded by some disciple or other, Thomas IIRC, saying, in essence, “Okay, Jesus, show us the way to the Father.” And Jesus’s answer is that He Himself is the way, the only way – which I take, not to mean, as some of the religion-codifiers would have it, that “You need to believe these particular things about me” or, in Tracer’s view, “You need to join my cult,” but “As Aristotle said about knowledge, there is no royal road to salvation. You need to walk as I have walked, do as I have done, follow Me, to get to Him.” I can easily understand why people might not buy this viewpoint, but IMHO, it’s the right choice to make, and **much** more palatable than “have the right theology” or “go through the right ritualistic steps.” It’s not “what you think” or even “what you do about it” but accepting love and help when it’s offered and using what you’re equipped with to further the Plan, instead of trying to figure out how you fit into the Plan by yourself and probably getting the wrong answer. Tracer, that bird that flew rapidly past you was carrying in its claws a copy of Heinlein’s _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, which I _thought_ I remembered you commenting on reading. Your reaction in that earlier post reminded me irresistably of the protagonist’s viewpoint and what he learned, including his quest through Heaven, Hell, and the Branch Office for a Danish zombie. (Fenris, stop laughing!) ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/39 "2001-06-06T22:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Glitch \* > However, with such a proof, I would make every effort to truly convert. There is little point in spending an eternity in hell just to take a moral stand against such a supreme being. followed by: > [@](#): > > Without the notion of eternal hell and with the proof you suppose in the OP I suppose I would simply ignore it and continue on my way. How very differently we see things, Glitch. With proof positive that God is the divine weasel, dealing out hatred you will try to join in fawning upon something you feel is evil, because it is powerful. Yet if it is proven He is not so evil as you suppose, and thereby, not so powerful; this you find contemptible. So I examine the opposite view, from my perspective. Suppose I find that my faith in Jesus is false. Only purposeful self debasement and sycophancy to God, as you see Him, could take me into eternal life, where the strong feed upon the weak forever, and fawning upon the mighty is the only path to respite from suffering. Somehow, I know what I thought was good, is good. I don’t know my strength, to claim I could stand fast, in the face of this hideous God you despise now, in your unbelief, but would try to love, if you stood before Him. But I know my heart desires that it might be thus: that I would proclaim my love of Jesus to the face of this petty sadist, with as much faith then, as now, though Jesus be shown to have been false, beyond denial. I love Jesus because He is good, not because He is powerful. Though I know it is not so, were God to be that nauseous thing you think I worship, not all the glories of eternity would make me forget the kind, sweet love of Him, that I know, in my soul. And in remembrance of His suffering I could choose only Hell, if Heaven were thus putrefied. ## Tris. “O Lord, wandering with thee, even hell itself would be to me a heaven of bliss.” ~ Ramayana ~ ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447/40 "2001-06-07T15:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > …(as I often do) resort to the anthromorphic principle. That should be, “anthropic principle.” _sigh_ Well, at least there weren’t any bolding errors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-what-if-thread/67447.md?page=3)