# Another whine about the evil of the fairer sex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432 "2003-06-30T21:16:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/41 "2003-07-01T13:37:25Z")
Just to throw a crazy suggestion from the left-field bleachers … What if the waitress (after the request for a date had been made) had said, “I’m sorry, I like talking with you guys, but I’m not interested in a relationship”? That way, she can continue to chat with them throughout the night, **Merijeek** isn’t operating under false pretenses, and the need to give out a fake phone number is obviated. I agree that **Merijeek** might have been a little stalker-y. I’m unclear as to why that requires the waitress to voluntarily give out a fake number, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/42 "2003-07-01T13:37:56Z")
**Ludovic** , you don’t appear to understand what I said at all. I never said that you should somehow magically remove all fear and paranoia from every woman you meet (although if you had that ability it would be somewhat assholish of you not to do so), but to precisely not cause fear and paranoia in her. Where’s our disagreement? **j\_kat\_251** , I haven’t got a clue what you’re trying to say. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferret Herder \* > **To clarify what I said above - my husband, when we were in just-friends mode, never pushed the issue. I knew he was still attracted to me, just because I could tell by the way he’d look at me sometimes. But he didn’t make me feel nervous, like I was raw meat he was eyeing up. It was more “appreciative” than anything, and he was very respectful of me. However, he did diplomatically point out when my then-boyfriend was being an asshole (and he was), and because other friends had begun to say it too, I didn’t think it was just a ploy to get into my pants.** _Exactly_. That’s the way to do it. That’s what a man would do. That’s what I did. Fuck James Bond. Fuck him right in the ear. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/43 "2003-07-01T14:08:59Z")
Oh, right, one more thing - waitress shouldn’t have pulled the fake number trick. That’s just stupid. The OP probably came off as way pushy but I would have just rolled my eyes afterwards at how lame some guys can get. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/44 "2003-07-01T14:22:41Z")
All things being equal, I’d say that everyone involved was being a jerk. However, given that the female in this case was the waitress, who is being paid to be at least courteous to you, and whose livelyhood (through tips) is dependent on your good humour, I don’t see anything wrong with what she did. She tried to let you down easy, you didn’t like that, so she made you feel good for the duration of your stay so that you’d not take out your rejection on her paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/45 "2003-07-01T14:31:16Z")
Who in their right mind would pass the opportunity to use a line as good as: “Naturally he’s not invited. That’d be pretty awkward, don’t you think?” I think everyone should lighten up, Merijeek was just being playful, it doesn’t grant her the right to behave like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/46 "2003-07-01T14:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pedro \* > **Who in their right mind would pass the opportunity to use a line as good as: "Naturally he’s not invited. That’d be pretty awkward, don’t you think?"** Someone who a) has more than two functioning braincells and b) cares about something else than looking good (read: like a Neanderthal) in front of his buddies. It may have been “playfulness” to **Merijeek** , but maybe (obviously, considering her reaction) not to the waitress. It doesn’t change that she was a bitch, but **Merijeek** was still a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/47 "2003-07-01T14:46:17Z")
What I’m saying is “misunderstandings” that arise from the girl’s perception of the prevalence of stalkers and other assholes, especially amongst awkward, intense persons such as myself, is not my fault but rather the perceiver’s fault, and the fault of those that helped create the stereotype in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/48 "2003-07-01T14:55:27Z")
What a lot of men don’t seem to realize is that there’s a whole world of difference between, “I have a boyfriend/lover/fiance/husband,” and “I don’t think my boyfriend/lover/fiance/husband would like that very much,” at least when used as a response to a come-on. On the surface, they seem fairly interchangeable, and they both relay the message that the lady in question is unavailable. However, they mean totally different things about the dynamic between the two of you. The first, depending on how it’s said (and whether a left hand gets waved in your face, in some cases), can mean a couple of things. Either you’d have a good chance is only she weren’t attached, or she’s annoyed that you’re too stupid to see that she’s attached. The second means that you don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell and never would, but we don’t want to be so rude as to say “Go fuck yourself.” It’s an attempt to politely but firmly discourage further attempts, while keeping the whole thing on a light “We both know you’re just kidding around” note. We could say that we’re busy, but we don’t want you suggesting other days/times/places. We could just say we’re not interested, but we don’t want to go through the whole “Well, why not?” thing. We’re not cranky that you asked, and you’re usually welcome to hang out and be friends, but it won’t do you a bit of good to keep asking us out. And if you do keep trying, we’re gonna _get_ cranky or creeped out, and and things will get ugly. See the OP for examples. Hell, I nearly ran over a man’s foot with my car once during one of these situations. I’d been grocery shopping, and was pulling out of my parking space when some guy came running up waving his arms. I thought something had fallen off my car, or I’d left a bag on top of the car or something, so I stopped. He wanted to know when we going out to dinner. I’m tired, and hungry, and in a mood, but there’s no reason to be rude to the man, so I trot out the “my fiance wouldn’t like that” bit. This doesn’t phase the guy a bit. He points out that I’m not wearing a ring, and so **Dr.J** must not be much of a fiance. (In point of fact, we weren’t technically engaged at this point, and I never had an engagement ring anyway, but thats neither here nor there.) I still don’t want to be rude, so I tell the guy I don’t wear any of my jewelry at work, because it’s dangerous. He starts trying to pump me for information about where I work. I’m starting to get creeped out by all this, so I tell him that, look, I’m engaged, and even if I wasn’t I’m not interested. So then he asks, “It’s because I’m black, isn’t it?” No, it’s because you’re some creepy guy who flagged me down in a parking lot, won’t take no for an answer, and is now trying to get information about where I can be found during the day. I roll up the window, and he just keeps standing there, so I start moving, and nearly roll over his foot getting the fuck out of Dodge. The guy was probably completely harmless, but I certainly didn’t want him turning up at the clinic, or knowing where I lived. This was a problem, because I lived directly across the street. I didn’t want the guy to follow me or walk by and recognize my car, so I wound up driving around in circles for 10 minutes to make sure he was gone before I went home. The moral is: women don’t like it when you ignore the fact that they’re not available and keep hitting on them anyway. Some of them will just give you a fake phone number, but some of us will fucking run over you with the car. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/49 "2003-07-01T15:09:29Z")
And here’s another little bit of worldly wisdom for you, guys: waitresses in bars are sometimes flirty and friendly because it gets them better tips. Behavior that would be considered teasing by, say, a female customer is part of making a living; grownups understand this and play along without taking it too seriously. Hell, I’m a straight woman, and (presumably straight) waitresses have flirted with me. And yes, I’ve gone along with it and tipped accordingly. It’s all part of the game that makes life a little more pleasurable. That said, the fake phone number was going too far IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/50 "2003-07-01T15:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > **Someone who a) has more than two functioning braincells and b) cares about something else than looking good (read: like a Neanderthal) in front of his buddies.** Yeah whatever, different viewpoints and all that. I thought it was funny and harmless. > [@](#): > > \*\*It may have been “playfulness” to **Merijeek** , but maybe (obviously, considering her reaction) not to the waitress. It doesn’t change that she was a bitch, but **Merijeek** was still a jerk. \*\* Remind me, exactly, what her reaction was besides laughing and later pretending to give him her phone number? Besides this girl is dating her boss. Doesn’t deserve much credibility right there. ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/51 "2003-07-01T15:19:30Z")
Q: How many times a night does a good-looking bartender/waitress get hit on? A: Lots. Q: How can she possibly distinguish me (or the OP) from all the other customers who have asked for her number? A: She can’t. As a guy, I never take waitron flirtations seriously anymore. Waitress fantasies are tempting, but they are a waste of time. Besides, as the OP discovered, on rare occasions such women have issues (maybe she’s taking a college course in “Women, Oppression, and Patriarchy”) and you’ll be target practice for their nasty, dark side. You’re a customer, not a friend or even a regular customer, so she has no investment in protecting your feelings. So, Frantic’s Rule of thumb: never attempt to date waitron in an establishment that serves alcohol. Get off the barstool and go talk to other customers. ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/52 "2003-07-01T15:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrazyCatLady \* > \*\*The moral is: women don’t like it when you ignore the fact that they’re not available and keep hitting on them anyway. Some of them will just give you a fake phone number, but some of us will fucking run over you with the car. \*\* :eek: Remind me never to date a woman with a car. Seriously though, your explanation makes a lot of sense, but I wouldn’t have come up with it by myself. Funny that there is a parallel thread ([Why Don’t Some Men Take “No” For an Answer?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194395) at this moment. I find all this very illuminating with respect to the fine lines between being confident, persistent, or obnoxious (or worse). Still, I hope you girls can understand that it is not easy for a guy, even when he really wants to try, to find out what to do and where to stop. Most of my male friends really want to do the proper thing (a standpoint like the one attributed to Scylla doesn’t even merit discussion), if only to avoid being blown off in a nasty way, but I hope you can appreciate that the certainty you feel in your head is not something the guy can immediately see. On top of that, there is no uniform reaction: some girls are very abrasive when even politely approached, other girls far too timid to make clear that they are not interested. And others even provide ‘proof’ that in some cases being obnoxious leads to results (See the other thread. I tend to think that guys should not go after those kind of girls, since they spell trouble.) I know one woman can’t help the actions of other women; unfortunately the only thing a guy has to go by is the experiences he has with others. Who said love was easy? ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/53 "2003-07-01T15:27:32Z")
I never leave messages with fresh digits. In this age of caller ID, just calling IS a message. If I don’t get a live person I don’t talk. It’s too easy to mumble stupidly to a machine. With a real person at least there is something to work with. Funny, most of the women I’ve slept with in the last few years have been waitresses. I do pretty well with alot of them for some reason. Get lots of digits, baby. It might have something to do with shots. I also don’t call most of em back. Oddly enough, I’d rather hook up with with intelligent career women living comfortable lives, but I keep ending up with waitresses that are cute, ditsy, and broke. Could be worse I suppose. There are all kinds of ways to give someone a number that is a secret fuck you. If you ever get 382-5968 that’s a fuck you. I’ve heard of chics giving out pizza place numbers, disconnected numbers, homeless shelters, movie theaters, and plenty of others. Never call while you are in their presence - save yourself the potential embarrassment. And never call sooner than 2 days or later than 5. Me, I always wait six. (Fuck . . . today is day 7! meant to call whats-her-name last night). Also never call on an even day from the day you met her. 3, 5, 7 days are all good. And Saturday’s count as a day but Sunday’s don’t. Also, never forget that a hair toss means your in, and a “boyfriend” is sometimes just a cigar. . . shaped object. Now forget everything I just said and be yourself. . . DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Pixelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ad7895/32.png) [@Pixelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixelle)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/54 "2003-07-01T15:56:18Z")
I’m not fond of the idea of men who persist in asking for a phone number when the woman has said that she’s got a boyfriend, but I also realize a lot of women play games and therefore some guys will push their luck. Having said that though, to be fair the OP was not entirely at fault in this situation. The waitress should do her job without leading the customer on and if they do lead them on, they should be prepared for the fallout. If a waitress is only looking for a tip from a customer, giving them a phone number and a real one at that, is _really_ dumb. It wouldn’t surprise me even if it was just a pathetic attempt to make her boyfriend jealous. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/55 "2003-07-01T16:36:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pedro \* > **Yeah whatever, different viewpoints and all that. I thought it was funny and harmless.** You know what’s really funny, witty and original? The next time you see two girls kissing, ask if you can watch. They’ll never have heard that one before. And you never know, it _might work_!!! My point: There’s nothing you can say to an attractive waitress that she hasn’t heard before. What are you going to say? “I reanimate dead goats for a living”?" Giving her a line to impress your buddies is just making her evening a little bit more difficult than it already is, and if you’ve already been told she has a boyfriend, you’re acting the dickhead. > [@](#): > > **Remind me, exactly, what her reaction was besides laughing and later pretending to give him her phone number?** Exactly that: giving a false number. That shows she didn’t exactly appreciate the come-on. > [@](#): > > \*\*Besides this girl is dating her boss. Doesn’t deserve much credibility right there. \*\* And now, straight from the Dark Ages, **Pedro**! Not a sensible bone in his body! The really scary thing isn’t that you think whether a girl is dating her boss or not is your business or has any bearing on the matter discussed, but that you don’t understand how fucking stupid even bringing it up really is. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/56 "2003-07-01T16:46:37Z")
Yeah, I was a little put off by that remark, too - it sort of stinks of “well, she shouldn’t dress that way if she doesn’t want to get raped.” As for the discussion at hand, why doesn’t everyone just assume that no one is playing games and take what people say at face value? If a woman is playing games and “no” actually means “try harder”, do you really want to date a woman that messed up? And just for the record, the good women don’t play games. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/57 "2003-07-01T17:01:21Z")
I would say that “Don’t stick your wick in the Company Oil” is a good rule of thumb. A breach of this rule doesn’t make one foolish per se, just maybe it is a decent hint that the person makes some reckless decicions (which could be a good thing). > [@](#): > > And just for the record, the good women don’t play games. So women who like to play games are no good by default? I disagree. Some of my most satisfying relationships have been with women who love to play games. I just play ball in those cases. Consider it a courting test designed to measure your wits. Some people are excited and drawn to a courtship that is heavy on the games. Don’t make em bad folks. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/58 "2003-07-01T17:09:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jdeforrest \* > \*\*I’m with Yosemitebabe. She shouldn’t have been flirting if she didn’t want to be picked up. > > I say take the petty revenge tactic and write her number on as many bathroom stall doors as you can find. She likes talking to drunk guys does she… 😉 \*\* A better idea. Take out an ad in the local Auto Trader for some decent at an increadible (but not stupidly so) price. The phone will be ringing off the hook fore weeks. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/59 "2003-07-01T17:11:57Z")
I really don’t understand why people must assign blame to either the OP or the waitress, or both. They were playing a game. They were playing at flirting. Each one rachetted up the game willingly. They both knew it had to end at some point. What the fuck is the big deal? People flirt. It happens, and it doesn’t make anyone a jerk. As to all of the comments of “‘I have a boyfriend’ means ‘fuck off, jerk’”, that’s simply not correct all the time. Both Pam and Holly were women that responded to my advances with “Sorry, I have a boyfriend.” I will always remember both of them fondly for all of the Hot Monkey Sex™ that we later had. (Rereading that last paragraph makes it seem like they occured in my life simultaneously. Unfortunately, that was not the case.) In fact, last year I met a woman that kept telling me about her committed relationship with her boyfriend. She was constantly reminding me about how she was taken (I wasn’t trying to pick her up, BTW – far from it). When we said goodbye, she offered her phone number, telling me to call any time I wanted a massage. I never called. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/60 "2003-07-01T17:24:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by featherlou \* > \*\*And just for the record, the good women don’t play games. \*\* Incorrect. When it comes to dating, **everyone** plays games. Some people just won’t admit it, other people don’t recognize it. And some people make the rules very easy to win. But like it or not, games are part and parcel of the dating experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432.md?page=4)