# Another whine about the evil of the fairer sex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432 "2003-06-30T21:16:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/121 "2003-07-03T03:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > I’m worried about how the girl will feel when you won’t take no for an answer. Settle down, you great big chivalrous teddy bear. He didn’t “not take no for an answer”, he _asked twice_. This wasn’t some aggressive guy intimidating her into changing her mind, this was a perfectly in-bounds (and, from the sounds of it, mostly joking) second try. And as for how _threatened_ the girl feels by it? Your indignation might lead you to just make stuff up about how he was obviously a horrible, terrifying beast, but we actually have a little more to go on than that: her response. Let’s see, he was such a monster that she laughed and kept up the friendly chit-chat, and eventually **gave him a real phone number**. You’re right, he must have been way out of line. And your perversion of “no means no” is ridiculous. The entire point of the phrase “no means no” is this: when a girl says “no”, you’re not allowed to interpret that or put any kind of “she really meant yes” spin on it. So it is utterly ridiculous of you to keep chanting “no means no” in order to support your idea that “I have a boyfriend” means no. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mr2001_ > From what I’ve seen here, apparently you’re supposed to interpret flirting from a waitress as “I want a nice tip”, not “I think you’re attractive”. Yeah, but it doesn’t matter. Sometimes you’re just willing to suspend your disbelief and pretend like she’s really into you, even if you know full well what’s going on. It’s fun. In addition, there can be that twinge of self-delusion telling you that maybe, just maybe, this girl really does find you attractive and isn’t in it for the tips. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/122 "2003-07-03T08:00:06Z")
For the last fucking time: This particular situation may not have been particularly heinous. Third time. Learn to read, **ntucker**. We’re no longer speaking about that particular incident, we’re speaking in generalities. This whole discussion is futile. I see it as obvious that you back off when told the girl has a boyfriend. The women here agree with me. Until a bunch of women show up saying I’m wrong, I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/123 "2003-07-03T14:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bren\_Cameron \* > \*\*Some men understand this, but a lot that I’ve met don’t. I’m not a tiny, weak little thing, but most men are bigger and stronger than I am. A man who won’t take no for an answer, who persists in hitting on me or asking for a number or a date when I’ve said no, doesn’t just seem creepy–it’s threatening. > > There’s a way to be persistent that isn’t threatening, of course, and I’m not trying to say that the OP was being a complete asshole. It sounds to me like he was a bit drunk and was dealing with some mixed signals from the waitress. And she was completely out of line with the phone number thing. \*\* Your first paragraph was as good an explanation as any. I’ve seen a lot of comments that are similar. The fact of the matter was I asked twice. One, two. That’s it. I asked her this at my table in full view of a hundred people, not while she was cornered against a dumpster while she was smoking a cigaratte. Hey ladies, have you every had someone ask you for something sexual? Did you refuse, and have him ask if you’re sure? Cuz from what I’m seeing from some people in this thread, you were nearly raped. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/124 "2003-07-03T14:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*That was fine-but unfortunately, he didn’t stop there. > > IF he had simply said that, then let it go, I would have laughed and moved on. If he kept at it, he was a jerk. > > Yeah, the waitress was an idiot. But he was a dick. \*\* Oh please. What you’re saying is that when someone is made uncomfortable in a situation like this…they continue flirting, stopping by frequently, and sitting down at the booth? Funny, if someone were to make me uncomfortable, I don’t think I’d keep stopping in the middle of a very busy shift to sit down at their booth. But then again, I’m sane. (Possibly a double post - stupid hamsters) -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/125 "2003-07-03T14:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jaade \* > \*\*Hmm…this is something I can’t explain. If you don’t understand it already, you probably wouldn’t understand it MORE by my explanation. It just does. > > It gives you that I’m attractive feeling. You have more confidence and carry yourself differently. > ~J \*\* Jaade is right. First good mood I’ve been in for quite some time. And it even lasted a couple days! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/126 "2003-07-03T15:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pedro \* > \*\*I used to consider all relationships sacred but they aren’t. Commitment is important to me but some women (not all, not even most) are just waiting until something better comes along. I won’t blame myself if I am that something. > \*\* Yeah, in my experience that usually changes the first time someone cheats on you. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/127 "2003-07-03T16:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > For the last fucking time: This particular situation may not have been particularly heinous. Third time. Learn to read, **ntucker**. We’re no longer speaking about that particular incident, we’re speaking in generalities. Ok, if you’re going to be a fucking asshole about it: fuck you. First, you’re not speaking in generalities – you very specifically said **merijeek** was being a jerk in this specific situation, so fuck you. If you think I misread something, then you feel free to point out exactly what, and we’ll discuss that, otherwise you can shove that condescension up your ass. Second, how big of you to admit that he “wasn’t particularly heinous”. I’m sure that makes him feel a lot better; he’s a woman-intimidater who won’t take no for an answer, but at least he’s not that heinous. Well, guess what? I think that makes you a self-righteous fuck who’s trying to weasel out of having thrown a pretty serious accusation at him. But you’re not particularly heinous, so I guess you shouldn’t be offended by me saying so. > [@](#): > > This whole discussion is futile. I see it as obvious that you back off when told the girl has a boyfriend. The women here agree with me. Until a bunch of women show up saying I’m wrong, I’m out of here. Well, **yosemitebabe** , for one, had a pretty reasonable interpretation of the story which didn’t include “WAAAAAH! NO MEANS NO!”. That doesn’t constitute “a bunch”, but it sure ain’t unanimous on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![barrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@barrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barrum)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/128 "2003-07-04T02:02:35Z")
in a local bar some years back and these two flaming homosexuals(their life choice, just not mine) are hitting on me from across the bar, so the young, new bartendress and i are laughing and i said to her loudly “so when are we going out again?” and i had to repeat myself a couple times till you could see her get my meaning, so the two finally stop and eventually leave, so the bartender turns to me and said “what, gay guys have to be hitting on you before you ask me out?” so then i did and of course i got shot down, gently ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/129 "2003-07-04T02:17:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Neither her words nor her actions said no, and as it happened, he had accepted that she didn’t want to giver him her number, but her continued flirting with him may have weaken his impression of what she actually meant. I guess its convient for you to ignore her behaviour and her actions, but facts mean nothing if they disrupt your charge, right? \*\* You know, I guess my opinion was based on my own personal belief that a “boyfriend” is a committed relationship that (for me personally) should be respected. If I was a waitress and I got asked out, and I told him I had a boyfriend, I would expect the conversation to end there. However, you are correct that she continued to display certain behaviors towards a man she obviously knew was interested in her. That was definitely a game play. The biggest jerk seemed to be the man who called you back. He ignored her (the waitresses) behavior that evening and felt it necessary to stick out his chest like too many testosterone dripping, infantile men feel they have to in our society. Thus, I guess my first post should really be a reflection of how I think committment is defined and how I wished others respected it. Some men and many women, see a title of “boyfriend/girlfriend” or “married” as a target. I can’t tell you how many women have hit on my husband AFTER he has been married. He laughs all the time saying that he could not get many “bites” before, but now they are chomping at the bit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/130 "2003-07-04T02:44:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\* He laughs all the time saying that he could not get many “bites” before, but now they are chomping at the bit. \*\* Now isn’t that the truth! I think many women just like to flirt and pick on committed/married men because they think they are safe. Now that is evil. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/131 "2003-07-04T06:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ntucker \* > **First, you’re not speaking in generalities – you very specifically said merijeek was being a jerk in this specific situation, so fuck you. If you think I misread something, then you feel free to point out exactly what, and we’ll discuss that, otherwise you can shove that condescension up your ass.** Get with the program. I did say **Merijeek** was a jerk, but, as you yourself admit in the next paragraph, I later said that the situation wasn’t particularly heinous. I said that I had misread. We then went on to discuss the general strategy (or whatever you want to call it) of not taking no for an answer and whether or not “I have a boyfriend” means no. You jumping in with a big stick ready to beat any dead horse that shows up doesn’t advance the discussion one way or the other. To sum up: If I have already admitted something, there’s very little point in trying to get me to admit it. You do understand that, right? I mean if you want the satisfaction of me admitting I’m wrong all over again, you can just re-read the post. > [@](#): > > **Second, how big of you to admit that he “wasn’t particularly heinous”. I’m sure that makes him feel a lot better; he’s a woman-intimidater who won’t take no for an answer, but at least he’s not that heinous. Well, guess what? I think that makes you a self-righteous fuck who’s trying to weasel out of having thrown a pretty serious accusation at him.** Weasel? I admitted I was wrong, **ntucker**. I said that I had misread, and that the situation wasn’t as bad as I thought. How is that weaseling? If you refer to the word “might”, that was because I was in fact not present, didn’t witness the event, and have virtually no idea what happened. If everything happened according to **Merijeek** ’s original post, then it’s quite possible that he did nothing wrong. Basically, I can’t see what you’re trying to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/132 "2003-07-04T10:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > by **Priceguy** : > Pedro, the correct response is “OK”. Also, there seem to be a fundamental flaw of understanding between us. Let me attempt to spell it out. > > (…) > > Get it? It’s not your feelings I’m worried about. I’m worried about how the girl will feel when you won’t take no for an answer. The correct response would be “OK, you’re right, this has nothing to do with honor”. I wasn’t talking about my feelings. And I tried explaining why it is not about not taking no for an answer, it is about not expecting the girl to instantly fall on to your arms and giving up at the slightest inconvenience, like her having a boyfriend, if she signals she is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/133 "2003-07-04T17:01:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\ ***Tir Tinuviel** : Then let’s start changing the world. Let’s take “I have a boyfriend” as a “no”. Let’s force women to talk straight. Let’s take everything they say at face value. \*\* I’m not about to “force” anybody to do anything. You’re contradicting yourself. Surely by “taking everything at face value” you’d have to accept that “I have a boyfriend” means exactly that and doesn’t imply anything else. If you turn it into some sort of code, it’s no longer face value. To make it mean anything else is just twisting language into a confusing mess that you need some sort of Crazy Mad Enigma Machine to interperate, and is certainly not “talking straight”. If there is something I want or don’t want I will say so, as on those occasions I want to be understood explicitly. If other people miss out on something, or get more then they bargained for because they are using “cutesy” phrases instead of being direct then that is their lookout. That being said, the world would be boring if we all said exactly what we meant with no room for ambiguity. Then think of all those “Does my arse look big in this?” questions you’d have to answer honestly! 😉 Or are we only talking about forcing _women_ to talk straight? > [@](#): > > \*\*This whole discussion is futile. I see it as obvious that you back off when told the girl has a boyfriend. The women here agree with me. Until a bunch of women show up saying I’m wrong, I’m out of here. \*\* It’s not futile if it has made you realise that it’s not obvious. I’m trying to think of one aspect of human relationships that could be said to always work the same way for everyone, every time, without exception. I’m struggling. The women agree with you except the ones that don’t? You can’t just bail out because someone comes in and says “actually that’s not a Stone Table fact”. Besides saying “my boyfriend wouldn’t like that” is not saying “I wouldn’t like that”. Maybe she was giving him a warning that although she’s up for it, they had better be discreet about it. God knows what she meant, as her words, actions and end result do all seem to be at odds with each other. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > **3. Long distance relationships don’t really work.** That’s why people make them into Short/No Distance Relationships. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/134 "2003-07-05T08:19:12Z")
You know, I still don’t understand what happened here. The waitress introduced herself to **merijeek** as Tina. When **merijeek** called the number she gave him, he got Jenny’s answering machine. So he left a message for Tina. Some loud guy called him back to inform him that Tina was already taken. Who is the guy? Jenny’s SO? Tina’s SO? If he’s Tina’s SO, why is he checking Jenny’s answering machine, and if he’s Jenny’s SO, why does he care if someone hits on Tina? ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/135 "2003-07-06T16:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > Get with the program. I did say **Merijeek** was a jerk, but, as you yourself admit in the next paragraph, I later said that the situation wasn’t particularly heinous. If this is what you’re referring to as “admitting you were wrong”, then you can see why I missed it. It sounds to me like you accused him of being a giant asshole, then later said, “I was wrong, you were only a medium-sized asshole.” (paraphrased) My point is that I don’t think he was an asshole _at all_ and he doesn’t deserve to be treated like one. Asking twice does not constitute “not taking no for an answer.” ---
**Author:** ![LadySybil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c89c15/32.png) [@LadySybil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LadySybil)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432/136 "2004-02-10T00:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by robertliguori_ > > Gah! Do women not speak English? ‘No’ means no. ‘I have a boyfriend’ means that the speaker has a boyfriend. There is a difference between these two sentiments. > > Ladies, is it truly so hard to say what you mean? Well, yes and no… 😃 Seriously though, I’m with **Merijeek** on this. The cute waitress sent some mixed signals, like others have mentioned. Also, IIRC, while sitting down and chatting with customers may not be forbidden, it is certainly taboo unless you’re on break. However, that could just be the policy at the restaurant where my mother works. She waitresses and bartends, but my stepdad (the big bald black tank) works with her too, so I fathom she doesn’t get much trouble from would-be hasslers. Waiter/waitress Dopers, help me out. Is it against policy or “frowned upon” by your manager(s) to sit and chat with your patrons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-whine-about-the-evil-of-the-fairer-sex/185432.md?page=6)