# another "white" Oscars - does it matter\>? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 14, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169 "2016-01-14T21:48:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/61 "2016-01-15T20:57:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Olivia Spencer was able to use her Oscar win to get a recurring role on the sitcom Mom. Octavia Spencer. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/62 "2016-01-15T21:05:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People seem to be skipping over Eyebrows of Doom’s post demonstrating that over the course of 20 years the rate at which black actors have been nominated for, and won, Oscars, is about what one would expect by random chance, given the number of black people in the USA and UK (the countries that make up the enormous majority of movies that get Academy attention.) There is not a whit of statistical basis for the notion black people are being unfairly treated in acting nominations at the Oscars. I pointed that out in post #50 as well. Latino/a actors are the ones getting the shaft. Maybe cuz they’re not real Americans nobody cares. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/63 "2016-01-15T21:26:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t know if you skipped her deliberately, but the character of Maz Kanata, a critical “alien effects” character, was played by Lupita N’yongo, who is assuredly black (and, of course, has her very own Oscar.) It was not deliberate. I missed her, and it does undercut my point by doing so. I guess I’m as bad as the academy! Though I did miss Poe in my list, who I wanted to specifically mention, as he could be a Lando Calrissian-type as much as a Han Solo-type. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/64 "2016-01-15T21:40:47Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Which is 9.67% (29 out of 300) Lower than the 13% you’d see if the Oscar nominations mirrored the national population exactly (we’d see 39, FWIW). But that begs the question of whether black actors aren’t being nominated in representative numbers, or whether they’re not being employed in representative numbers? I mean, if only 5% of motion picture actors turn out to be black, then they’re being nominated at about twice the rate we’d expect. If 13.2% of movie actors are black, then we’re nominating at a non-representative rate. And… I’m not a statistician, but the small sample size and the fact that it’s even within the ballpark as the representative number makes me think that maybe there’s not an issue, as \*\*RickJay \*\*is also suggesting. I don’t think there’s a racist casting cabal at work that intentionally casts white actors when the race is immaterial to a role. Rather, it’s probably a reflection of all the actors that are out there, and if 70% of them are white, it’s likely that any old garden-variety role will be filled by a white actor unless there’s deliberate effort put forth to seek out some other sort. You could make the same argument for disabled people, ugly people, etc… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/65 "2016-01-15T21:45:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Though I did miss Poe in my list, who I wanted to specifically mention, as he could be a Lando Calrissian-type as much as a Han Solo-type. You do know Óscar Isaac Hernández Estrada was born in Guatemala, right? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/66 "2016-01-15T21:46:11Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Though I did miss Poe in my list, who I wanted to specifically mention, as he could be a Lando Calrissian-type as much as a Han Solo-type. I’m not sure if this fits into your point in any way, but in context worth mentioning that Oscar Isaac (Poe) is Latino. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/67 "2016-01-15T21:58:28Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I fall on the side that this is a Hollywood issue and not an Oscars issue. > > But I also concede that it is probably a social/money issue that drives these things. Some roles sort of have to be a certain race (Steve Jobs in his biopic should not be played by a black man) I can see what you are saying here, but why exactly must Steve Jobs be played by a White actor? I get that, reflexively, people want an actor to resemble the character when that character is a well-known, contemporary person, but isn’t that feeling a bit ridiculous given these movies are employing _actors_ whose portrayals are almost never confused for those of the real person? I just don’t see why we expect audiences to buy that Matt Damon is on Mars, or that Robert Downey Jr. is a superhero billionaire, but think we can’t grasp the fact that an actor playing someone might be of a different race or ethnicity. To me, it’s like when actors fake a foreign accent when portraying people who speak/spoke a different language (eg. Hitler speaking English with a German accent). I generally get what they are trying to do, but I feel like it rests on some really questionable assumptions that make little sense when examined. It would be less problematic if those assumptions didn’t often have negative real-world consequences, but they do. It means many non-White actors are just simply shut out of parts because of the topic of the film, the era, or even the occupations of the characters due to the fact that people need to have their own biases and prejudices reconfirmed on a regular basis. It’s one thing when it is a contemporary person like Steve Jobs whose appearance most people are aware of, but I think this type of thinking bleeds into so many other areas. It’s not always about race, but I feel like keeping that door open just means unfounded assumptions are allowed to masquerade as reasonable job qualifications. It’s also galling that historically, Hollywood generally has little problem allowing White actors to play real-life people of color (eg. Ben Affleck in Argo, Max Minghella in The Social Network). > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > It’s becoming more and more obvious that the liberals in Hollywood are racist. Why do you assume those two groups are mutually exclusive, or that you need to be a racist in order to unconsciously perpetuate racism or bias? > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > We already sort of have that system. Why are there awards for best male and best female of everything? Why do women need their own award? Is that a case of the same thing as having a “best black actor”? > > Of course, you know the reality - if there was only “best actor (gender not specified)”, then every nomination would be a man, all the time. Very astute observation. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/68 "2016-01-15T22:11:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People seem to be skipping over Eyebrows of Doom’s post demonstrating that over the course of 20 years the rate at which black actors have been nominated for, and won, Oscars, is about what one would expect by random chance… I disagree that it demonstrates any such thing. She carefully goes back exactly 15 years (not 20), to just before the peak of recognition for black actors in 2001-2006. The year just prior was another zero-nominations year, as of course were a great many in the decades before that. Even this most-charitable scoping shows black actors receiving nominations and awards at a rate below their proportional representation. And _this_ despite the fact that black actors have to be _better_ than their median white counterparts to get notable roles in the first place. I stand by my view. One all-white year is maybe, barely credible, as a fluke. Two in a row is confirmation of bias. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/69 "2016-01-15T22:19:38Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You can say that with a straight face, here on this board that never met a worthy best picture winner?. Yep. I often disagree with the “Best Picture” winner, but it’s the nature of the ratings game in general that it’s much easier and more sensible to assemble a list of the best 5 or 8 or 10 movies of the year than to pick a single one that supposedly stands out from all of them, because that last step is often based on very nuanced and subjective qualities. But the list of nominees is usually a fairly reliable guide to good movies and not often controversial. In fact many reviewers are pretty good at predicting the nominees ahead of time. I wonder how they do that? ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/70 "2016-01-15T22:23:13Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > No the Oscars are not “too white.” :rolleyes: There are only 20 slots for acting nominees. This question really annoys me because it assumes people were not nominated simply because they are Black. How about, there are hundreds of people to choose from to fill those 20 slots and maybe, just maybe, the nominating committee actually thought the ones they chose were the best? Some people think this is part of the problem - the “nominating committee” is actually “every actor who is a member of the Academy,” and this is over 90% white. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/71 "2016-01-15T22:35:38Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I can see what you are saying here, but why exactly must Steve Jobs be played by a White actor? Well, because he was white. Hollywood gets practically every other detail wrong in historical movies, it’s nice to have them get at least one detail correct! 🙂 But, I agree with your point. Still, could you imagine the furor if Tom Hanks was cast as Martin Luther King? The past is rife with non-ethnically correct casting. For example, Michael Ansara has played practically every ethnicity but his own at some time or another. But, films don’t exist in a vacuum. They are made for people to go spend money to see. And keeping your audience in mind helps make money. Casting Will Smith as Steve Jobs would alienate even the most liberal, non-racist segment of the public that still thinks facts are facts, and casting Hanks as MLK is going to piss off every black person in the world, and they are all going to wonder why they hell anyone would do that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/72 "2016-01-15T22:57:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I disagree that it demonstrates any such thing. > > She carefully goes back exactly 15 years (not 20), to just before the peak of recognition for black actors in 2001-2006. The year just prior was another zero-nominations year, as of course were a great many in the decades before that. > > Even this most-charitable scoping shows black actors receiving nominations and awards at a rate below their proportional representation. And _this_ despite the fact that black actors have to be _better_ than their median white counterparts to get notable roles in the first place. > > I stand by my view. One all-white year is maybe, barely credible, as a fluke. Two in a row is confirmation of bias. Going back to the beginning of this century isn’t necessarily “careful”. And why do you focus on the black disparity when the latin disparity is so much greater? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/73 "2016-01-15T23:47:51Z")
Of course it matters. When minorities and women lack representation, it means children grow up trying to attain the expectations of white males. This isn’t just a problem in movies, but everywhere in life. Anyone remember the[Doll Test](http://www.naacpldf.org/brown-at-60-the-doll-test) that helped to decide _Brown vs Board of Education_? Kids, even black kids, associated negative stereotypes to black dolls over white dolls. Think of what that means for the world today. I’m in no way saying a few black Oscars would fix this, but it would be a step in the right direction if we had better, more balanced representation of minorities and we didn’t think of blacks as thugs, or women as objects. Maybe if people didn’t see blacks as aggressive, we wouldn’t have as many white officers shooting young black men. Or people would take women’s sexual rejections more seriously if Cary Grant or James Bond didn’t simply force their tongue into a woman’s mouth and suddenly she creams her panties after trying to fight them off before. I think it would be hilarious if Daniel Craig tries to kill a woman in the next Bond film and she not only rejects him but shoots him, and the movie ends with her swearing off men and going lesbian. The problem with people pretending a few more black and minority actors doesn’t matter is because a few more won’t matter. We need a lot more, and we need minorities writing, producing, and hiring. And even then, it would be difficult to point at one movie or actor and say this caused this. So people wallow in their ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/74 "2016-01-16T00:20:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > But you can’t entirely blame the Oscars, you have to share the blame with the studios and producers who make a lot more movies starring white people. No, I don’t blame them at all. Much as I’d enjoy describing Hollywood’s liberal elite as hypocritical racists, I think that’s entirely untrue. I very much doubt that any high-ranking person in Hollywood is a racist. Hollywood studios exist to make money. They are a big money-making operation. They spend a great deal of effort trying to find out what types of movies make money. If there’s a market for a type of movie, they’ll make movies to fill that niche. They don’t have a great deal of scruples or artistic integrity. Wherever the money is, that’s where they’ll go. The thing is, though no one wants to say it, movies with white characters sell more tickets and DVDs, on average and all else being equal. It is not a matter of the studios being racist, it’s a matter of the audience preferring one thing over another. Take Disney’s Princess movies, for example. Look up the global box office take for _Princess and the Frog_ and compare it to _Frozen_, _Tangled_, and _Brave_. Or just take the [list](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/) of the top-grossing movies of all times. While _The Force Awakens_ is at #3, after that you have to go down to _Independence Day_ at #51 to find another movie with a non-white lead\*. It is not the fault of the studios. The studios can only make movies. The audience decides which movies to see. If you dislike the results, blame the audience. _Well, I guess Avatar has a blue lead and Minions_\* has yellow leads, but you get the point. \*\*And while we’re on the topic, how on earth did _Minions_ become the 11th most successful movies ever? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/75 "2016-01-16T00:28:36Z")
@YogSosoth: So just to be clear, do you think things won’t be good until blacks are OVER-represented in the entertainment industry? I mean, I think it’s fair to say blacks are already over represented in the music and sports sectors, but it’s important to you that it gets that way in the movies? Without researching it, Jewish people are probably over-represented in the movie/tv sector. If you agree, what benefits culturally has that had? Correct me if I’m wrong. A quick Google shows them at about 1.7% of US population, which seems low compared to how much they are presented/involved in shows. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/76 "2016-01-16T01:09:57Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Or just take the [list](http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/) of the top-grossing movies of all times. While _The Force Awakens_ is at #3, after that you have to go down to _Independence Day_ at #51 to find another movie with a non-white lead On the thinnest of technicalities, I think Samuel L. Jackson was actually higher-billed in REVENGE OF THE SITH than John Boyega was in FORCE AWAKENS. ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/77 "2016-01-16T02:37:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > @YogSosoth: So just to be clear, do you think things won’t be good until blacks are OVER-represented in the entertainment industry? I mean, I think it’s fair to say blacks are already over represented in the music and sports sectors, but it’s important to you that it gets that way in the movies? > > Without researching it, Jewish people are probably over-represented in the movie/tv sector. If you agree, what benefits culturally has that had? Correct me if I’m wrong. A quick Google shows them at about 1.7% of US population, which seems low compared to how much they are presented/involved in shows. Can you at least include “people” after black? I mean you do it with Jewish, so can you extend the same courtesy to us, please? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/78 "2016-01-16T03:08:10Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Well, because he was white. He was also American unlike Fassbender. Why is his nationality, age, or any other characteristic less important than his race? It isn’t for any logical or justifiable reason. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But, I agree with your point. Still, could you imagine the furor if Tom Hanks was cast as Martin Luther King? Yes, but I suspect the uproar would be more about how a White actor took one of the few roles that would traditionally go to a Black actor, and less about strict “inaccuracy”. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No, I don’t blame them at all. Much as I’d enjoy describing Hollywood’s liberal elite as hypocritical racists, I think that’s entirely untrue. I very much doubt that any high-ranking person in Hollywood is a racist. Did you read those emails from the Sony hack or Chris Rock’s [essay](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/top-five-filmmaker-chris-rock-753223) on the topic of race in Hollywood? > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Hollywood studios exist to make money. They are a big money-making operation. They spend a great deal of effort trying to find out what types of movies make money. If there’s a market for a type of movie, they’ll make movies to fill that niche. What gives you ANY confidence Hollywood is good at predicting what will make money, or that that is their primary concern? Neal Brennan, the director/comedian/writer, said it best when he [opined](http://www.statesman.com/videos/entertainment/comedian-neal-brennan-you-dont-get-cache-if-youre/vCnBBM/) that you don’t get cache making Black movies. On his podcast, he even went as far as to describe how he has interacted with execs who almost act as if “Black money” is dirty or worth less. Attitudes like that are pretty common, and certainly contribute to the entertainment industry not being an efficient market that carters to everyone in pursuit of making the most money. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The thing is, though no one wants to say it, movies with white characters sell more tickets and DVDs, on average and all else being equal. Do you have a reputable cite that says White movies make more in profit or revenue on average? Yes, White movies are among the most successful, but that is in large part because they make more White movies, so there is more variance. For every blockbuster with a bunch of White characters, there are tons of Indies that no one see, and tons of big-budget bombs like John Carter or The Lone Ranger. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It is not a matter of the studios being racist, it’s a matter of the audience preferring one thing over another. Possibly, but how do they know that if they rarely make Black movies? How many other Tyler Perrys or Kevin Harts are there out there that didn’t get any backing? Perry is worth $400mm. Why didn’t ANY studio back him despite his demonstrated success? > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It is not the fault of the studios. The studios can only make movies. The audience decides which movies to see. If you dislike the results, blame the audience. The audience can only see movies that get made. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/79 "2016-01-16T04:37:18Z")
One thing’s for sure. Black actors, producers, directors, etc will be falling over themselves to get movies made ready for consideration at the next Oscars. Whether they deserve it or not it’s likely that there will be much pressure to have black nominations or wins. Tokenism? Sure. But such is the inevitable result when everything becomes about racism, even when it’s imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/80 "2016-01-16T04:44:32Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > He was also American unlike Fassbender. Why is his nationality, age, or any other characteristic less important than his race? It isn’t for any logical or justifiable reason. Well OK then. A Black actor can be cast as Steve Jobs, he just has to change his skin color to look white. Since Fassbender changed his accent to play him as an American. He didn’t play the character as Irish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169.md?page=5)