# another "white" Oscars - does it matter\>? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 14, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169 "2016-01-14T21:48:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/161 "2016-01-19T21:54:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Just because it’s always been so doesn’t mean it makes sense. Now I am not arguing they should all be in the same category, but your flimsy justification makes no sense whatsoever. Acting is acting. There is no reason someone would have trouble differentiating between two performances just because the actors are of different genders. There are far more intra-gender differences in male performances than there are between any one male or female. Yes, yes, I know in your mind there is no reason a Black woman couldn’t play the lead in Trumbo, and that’s it’s only racism & sexism stopping that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/162 "2016-01-19T22:52:14Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > It is neither a tactic nor a strawman. In the wake of the whole “Oscars so white” debate Academy voters are frequently accused of “racial bias”, which honestly is little more than a nicer term for racism. No, actually it’s not. That’s where your misunderstanding lies. Doubly so because as soon as you say _something_ is “racist”, people hear you calling \*someone \*a racist, and that is not always the same thing. > [@Hiker](#): > > Your personal version of that is to claim that the Academy voters show a “lack of effort to be inclusive” and that they fail to even notice worthy black contenders “because their old, White friends didn’t tell them about it at a party”. Are you really sure that “Trumbo” and “45 Years” were seen by more Academy voters than “Creed”? I would not be surprised at all if that were the case, but I think the theory holds less so with movies like Creed. > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Yes, yes, I know in your mind there is no reason a Black woman couldn’t play the lead in Trumbo, and that’s it’s only racism & sexism stopping that from happening. Please explain to me why Ben Affleck can play a Hispanic guy, but Will Smith cannot play a White guy that has nothing to do with racial biases? There aren’t any. That doesn’t mean race neutral casting must always win the day, but we should acknowledge that there is discrimination and bias in play that has little redeeming value. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/163 "2016-01-19T23:25:33Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Please explain to me why Ben Affleck can play a Hispanic guy, but Will Smith cannot play a White guy that has nothing to do with racial biases? But… Tony Mendez, the person Affleck was playing in Argo, doesn’t identify as Hispanic. ([Tony Mendez - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Mendez)) Will Smith also isn’t a great example as he regular plays characters that were white in their original incarnation (Men in Black, Suicide Squad, I Am Legend) or were written for white actors (Bad Boys). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/164 "2016-01-19T23:52:22Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But… Tony Mendez, the person Affleck was playing in Argo, doesn’t identify as Hispanic. ([Tony Mendez - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Mendez)) > > Will Smith also isn’t a great example as he regular plays characters that were white in their original incarnation (Men in Black, Suicide Squad, I Am Legend) or were written for white actors (Bad Boys). Mendez is Hispanic though, so the point obtains. Further, those aren’t real people Smith is playing, so I ask again for a race neutral reason why Smith cannot play, for example, John Nash, or some real-life White person? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/165 "2016-01-20T00:01:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > They don’t want a fair and unbiased nominations. They want more black nominees. It’s made clear by the consistent ignoring of the fact that despite no black nominees this year, the last 15 years shows a pretty close to what you’d expect ratio. Also, no one cares about any of the other ethnic groups that are by far less properly represented in the nominees. More black nominees mean fair and unbiased. The omission of such a large minority group is jarring. Nobody “cares”, or rather notices the lack of other ethnic groups because those other ethnic groups are far less numerous. Like I told puddleglum, Indian Americans are less than a percentage of the US. They are a margin of error. It makes sense that there’s none of them nominated for the Oscars. African Americans, not so much ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/166 "2016-01-20T00:02:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are two possibilities for why there are no black nominees: > > 1. No black performers/directors were as good as any of the white nominees > > or > > 1. There exists some bias in Oscar voting against black performers/directors You can’t honestly believe this. The only possible reasons there are no black nominees is because of either merit or race? Those are the _only_ two possibilities? Oscar nominations are political. They are largely based on PR campaigns launched by studios, and heavily influenced (almost ridiculously so) by what time of year the movie is released. If the argument is that there’s systemic racism inside the PR campaign structure, I won’t argue. Brickbacon’s descriptions of inherent racism almost certainly loom large in that context. But to naively state that the only two possible reasons for not getting a nomination are 1) merit, or 2) racism is laughably naive. Merit is only tangentially related to Oscar nominations in the first place, and the constant stream of white actors getting snubbed puts the lie to the idea that racism is the only possible factor other than merit. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/167 "2016-01-20T00:05:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > More black nominees mean fair and unbiased. The omission of such a large minority group is jarring. Nobody “cares”, or rather notices the lack of other ethnic groups because those other ethnic groups are far less numerous. Like I told puddleglum, Indian Americans are less than a percentage of the US. They are a margin of error. It makes sense that there’s none of them nominated for the Oscars. African Americans, not so much Hispanic people are a larger percentage of the American population and are far less represented than black actors in the nominations. So, you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/168 "2016-01-20T00:43:49Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > You can’t honestly believe this. The only possible reasons there are no black nominees is because of either merit or race? Those are the _only_ two possibilities? > > Oscar nominations are political. They are largely based on PR campaigns launched by studios, and heavily influenced (almost ridiculously so) by what time of year the movie is released. If the argument is that there’s systemic racism inside the PR campaign structure, I won’t argue. Brickbacon’s descriptions of inherent racism almost certainly loom large in that context. > > But to naively state that the only two possible reasons for not getting a nomination are 1) merit, or 2) racism is laughably naive. Merit is only tangentially related to Oscar nominations in the first place, and the constant stream of white actors getting snubbed puts the lie to the idea that racism is the only possible factor other than merit. The bias (if it exists) isn’t necessarily due to racism – it could be due to voters not having watched those movies, or many other things. But such a bias could be part of a problem, even if it’s not racism – if Academy voters aren’t watching movies with black actors and black directors as often, that could be a systemic problem that should be addressed, even if it’s not necessarily racism or bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/169 "2016-01-20T01:03:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hispanic people are a larger percentage of the American population and are far less represented than black actors in the nominations. So, you’re wrong. By most accounts, Hispanics are a much smaller portion of the acting pool than Blacks though. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/170 "2016-01-20T01:10:06Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > By most accounts, Hispanics are a much smaller portion of the acting pool than Blacks though. Yes. A SAG report I linked in the GD thread puts them at about 7% of working actors. They are still not getting 7% of nominees, and YogSosoth was apparently not “jarred” by their absence. Didn’t even remember they existed. lol. eta: here it is : [http://www.sagaftra.org/files/sag/documents/2007-2008\_CastingDataReports.pdf](http://www.sagaftra.org/files/sag/documents/2007-2008_CastingDataReports.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/171 "2016-01-20T01:55:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The bias (if it exists) isn’t necessarily due to racism – it could be due to voters not having watched those movies, or many other things. But such a bias could be part of a problem, even if it’s not racism – if Academy voters aren’t watching movies with black actors and black directors as often, that could be a systemic problem that should be addressed, even if it’s not necessarily racism or bigotry. Agreed, but your original point is still a false dichotomy. The two possibilities (merit and bias) are valid, but there’s also a third possibility: Any given black performance could be snubbed for the same reasons as white performances get snubbed, which happens all the time. This third possibility has nothing to do with race. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/172 "2016-01-20T02:10:00Z")
> **[The Fresh Prince of Bel Air's Janet Hubert Slams Jada Pinkett-Smith for...](https://www.eonline.com/news/732196/the-fresh-prince-of-bel-air-s-janet-hubert-slams-jada-pinkett-smith-for-calling-an-oscars-boycott)** > > Aunt Viv is bringing out the shade Janet Hubert is Will Smith’s former co-star on Fresh Prince of Belair. In the link above, she apparently criticizes Jada Pinket Smith for her boycott. It is pretty strong stuff (from what I read about it). I sure do hope no one else has posted this link. But there are 180 posts in this thread and I couldn’t read them all. What do you think of her video? I searched this thread for her name but didn’t find it. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/173 "2016-01-20T02:31:31Z")
Clearly actors should be judged by the color of their skin, not the quality of their performance. #blackoscarsmatter ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/174 "2016-01-20T02:48:11Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > 1. People famous because of the movie. People like Erin Brockovich or David Helfgott. I’d even include John Nash. Other than _Concussion_, how many other biographies about little known or obscure black people can you name? _Twelve Years a Slave_; while the bio (book) was best-seller-ish at the time, I’d say it was obscure in the 20th-21st Centuries until the movie came out. ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/175 "2016-01-20T03:18:30Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > What do you think of her video? OG Aunt Viv is salty as fuck. ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ > [@TBG](#): > > Clearly actors should be judged by the color of their skin, not the quality of their performance. #blackoscarsmatter Cute. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/176 "2016-01-20T06:28:14Z")
…here is a scene from the most recent series of Project Greenlight: Matt Damon is the personification of the "left-wing Hollywood liberal". But he completely misses the boat here. The "best" director that was chosen for Project Greenlight tossed out the original script and made a movie which currently is at [0% on Rotten Tomatoes](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the\_leisure\_class/). The reality is that it is hard enough to get a seat at the table and when you do get that seat you get shouted down. Lets forget about race for a minute and lets think about gender: because it is much easier to demonstrate how Hollywood “works” when the numbers are much clearer. Only four women have been nominated for best director in the history of the Oscars. Only one women has won. The “percentage of US population” argument really falls apart here. Here is the 2015 Hollywood Diversity Report. [http://www.bunchecenter.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2-25-15.pdf](http://www.bunchecenter.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2-25-15.pdf) From the conclusion, Page 54. > [@](#): > > Industry employment can be incredibly lucrative for individuals privileged enough to have it. Because of the high risk associated with the typical project-most new television shows fail, most films underperform-individual stakeholders in the industry (typically white and male) look to surround themselves with other individuals with whom they feel comfortable, with whom they feel they have the best prospects for producing a successful project. These latter individuals, of course, tend to think and look like the former, thereby reproducing an industry culture that routinely devalues the talent of minorities and women. We aren’t talking about a deliberate conspiracy of the white male racist/sexist elite. But this is an industry where Catherine Hardwicke can make a movie that brings in $400 million worldwide (Twilight) and then struggle to get work ever since. Debra Granik, writer and director of Winters Bone, can’t get another movie. Colin Trevorrow, after moderate success with an indie movie, gets handed the keys to Jurrasic Park and Star Wars. Is Trevorrow objectively a better Director than Granik or Hardwicke? Would Lexi Alexander have made a better Jurassic World? Of course these questions are really unanswerable. But the figures suggest that Granik or Hardwicke never had a chance of directing Jurrasic World. They aren’t in the running. > [@](#): > > Despite all the debate around the lack of opportunities for women, the film industry continues to be dominated by men, new research shows. In 2014, 85% of films had no female directors, 80% had no female writers, 33% had no female producers, 78% had no female editors and 92% had no female cinematographers, according to the Center for the Study of Women in Television and Film at San Diego State University. > **[Women Comprise 7% of Directors on Top 250 Films (Study)](https://variety.com/2015/film/news/women-hollywood-inequality-directors-behind-the-camera-1201626691/)** > > In 2014, 85% of Hollywood films had no female directors, 80% had no female writers and 33% had no female producers, according to a study. And the figures are much worse now than they were 30 years ago. Hollywood is going backwards. [And this depressing link provides plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hollywood and the film industry could be considered a hostile workplace for women.](http://shitpeoplesaytowomendirectors.tumblr.com/) Lets stop pretending diversity isn’t a problem. You don’t fix it “in the casting of the film.” The Oscar nominations fairly represent the views of the Academy, which is 94 percent white, 76 percent male, and an average of 63 years old. These are the gatekeepers: and it is here where change needs to happen to make Hollywood a more diverse place to work. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/177 "2016-01-20T06:47:25Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > [Fresh Prince's Janet Hubert Slammed Jada for Her Oscars Boycott](http://www.eonline.com/news/732196/the-fresh-prince-of-bel-air-s-janet-hubert-slams-jada-pinkett-smith-for-calling-an-oscars-boycott) > > In the link above, she apparently criticizes Jada Pinket Smith for her boycott. …what do you mean “apparently”? You provided the link. Did you read it before you posted it? From your cite: “First of all, Miss Thing, does your man not have a mouth of his own with which to speak?” Janet Hubert is entitled to her opinion. But her opening sentence suggests that Janet really doesn’t understand the issues of equality and diversity at all. Jada Pinket Smith can speak for herself and doesn’t need her husband to speak for her. So thats what I think. Now what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/178 "2016-01-20T10:33:36Z")
That was a fantastic post, **Banquet Bear** , but I fear this is a topic where the [Liberal Limit](https://twitter.com/BroderickGreer/status/689322584261947392) has been reached. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/179 "2016-01-20T12:30:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what do you mean “apparently”? You provided the link. Did you read it before you posted it? > > From your cite: > > “First of all, Miss Thing, does your man not have a mouth of his own with which to speak?” > > Janet Hubert is entitled to her opinion. But her opening sentence suggests that Janet really doesn’t understand the issues of equality and diversity at all. Jada Pinket Smith can speak for herself and doesn’t need her husband to speak for her. > > So thats what I think. Now what do you think? I think that if you expect other posters to answer you in a respectful manner, you should speak to them in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169/180 "2016-01-20T12:46:21Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I think that if you expect other posters to answer you in a respectful manner, you should speak to them in the same way. …well I wasn’t expecting an answer from you anyway, so no matter. But both answering the question you asked, and asking “Did you read it before you posted it?” and “Now what do you think?” isn’t disrespectful, but of course YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-white-oscars-does-it-matter/743169.md?page=10)