# Another "Worst" Thread: 20th-Century Woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354 "2005-06-01T13:06:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/41 "2005-06-02T01:08:05Z")
**Guinstasia.** try this infoplease link: [http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html) . But here’s the reveleant part(s). > [@](#): > > It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the [end-stage syphillis] experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African-Americans who collaborated with them?.. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years… Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: “we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor’s instructions!” It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss. 399 men were involved in “the longest untheraputic medical experiment in medical history.” Even when penicillin was created it was denied to these men. This legacy of this experiment is one of the main reasons millions of black Americans are still distrustful of medical authority and prone to believing conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/42 "2005-06-02T01:27:00Z")
Ah, so she used the old, “Just following orders!” routine. **RickJay** , perhaps that’s true. But I remember watching footage of DDT being sprayed willy-nilly EVERYWHERE, with reckless abandon. Perhaps there was a better usage of it? Besides, she did have a point that you have to be careful when fucking with the eco-system. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/43 "2005-06-02T01:27:32Z")
**Rickjay** – honestly – Africa’s genocidal ethnic wars in Rwanda, Congo, periodic droughts in Ethiopia and the AIDS pandemic there throughout the continent have caught my attention much more than deaths by malaria. Seriously, I had no idea the numbers were that high and your 40,000,000 deaths seemed outrageous, which is why I asked for the cite. That said, the differences I’m reading is that DDT in Africa is used for careful controlled spraying indoors, whereas its use in the U.S. was outdoors and more volumious and indiscriminate, causing the environmental damage to plants and wildlife cited by Carson. It doesn’t seem to be a case of “banning DDT to save the environment OR Using DDT to save African children,” so much as it apparently is a case of “allowing controlled DDT use indoors, since nothing else seems to work as well and it doesn’t harm the environment in this fashion.” That said, I’m curious to know about the worldwide DDT ban. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/44 "2005-06-02T01:44:39Z")
Thank you for that link, **Askia**. That is so incredibly horrifying. Now I see where the conspiracy theories about AIDS and crack cocaine come from. Jesus wept. Some of the footage I saw of DDT spraying involved some kids at a local swimming pool, sitting at a picnic table eating hot dogs for lunch. They were absolutely drenched with the stuff. Ew. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/45 "2005-06-02T02:00:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I admit Rachel Carson is a neat suggestion, inasmuch as her campaign against DDT has probably resulted in the deaths of 40,000,000 people or more, with no definable benefit. But Carson didn’t ban DDT, she just started the hysteria. In fairness to Carson: #1) She was a scientist. #2) Silent Spring was published in 1962 #3) Carson died in 1964 There is just no way to know what Carson would have advocated if she had lived longer, and concluded the benefits of DDT WRT malaria outweighed the risks. Perhaps she would have concluded that DDT was worthwhile for use in countries where malaria was a significant problem. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/46 "2005-06-02T03:06:46Z")
Like I said, I’m not nominating Carson. I think she’s connected with a lot of unnecessary deaths, but it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense to blame her for something that,when you get right down to it, other people did. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/47 "2005-06-02T03:46:27Z")
Phyllis Schlafly? She springs to mind because I just saw some footage of her on the Daily Show. not a serious contender, really. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/48 "2005-06-02T04:15:29Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m no fan of Blair either but the unions were responsible for the winter of Discontent, which in itself was a symptom of a need for a change in the social contract. Change - not wholesale destruction of communities and the seeding of massive social problems. I’m biased because i’m British and had to suffer through her Terror but there are ways and means of changing societies and economies other than brutal slash and burn while lining the pockets of your friends. If Reagan was a woman I’d vote for him. There is hardly one redeeming feature of either of their reigns, not compared to the callously uncaring misery they caused. It’s interesting to know that there are still old-style socialists in Britain. Regarding equality, do you favour equality of outcome as Lord Young (the architect of Britain’s social welfare system) did? His arguments were summed up by his son Toby as follows: > [@Young on Young](#): > > In my father’s view, equality of opportunity is a snare and a delusion since it makes it less likely that equality of outcome, the ‘hard’ form of equality he believed in, will ever come about. If everyone starts out on a level playing field then the resulting distribution of wealth, however unequal, will be regarded as legitimate. (Young 2001: 245) Would you agree that equality of opportunity is a snare and a delusion? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/49 "2005-06-02T05:41:04Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Leni Riefenstahl must at least be considered, in my opinion. She did a _lot_ of propaganda for the Nazi regime and helped both spread its message and present it in the most attractive light possible. I would vote against Riefenstahl. Her pro-Nazi propaganda piece _Triumph of the Will_ was released in 1935, _after_ the Nazis had consolidated power over all facets of German government. Emergency laws were passed following the Reichstag fire in 1933; the state legislatures had been disbanded; the offices of president and chancellor had been combined; and the enabling law had been passed which allowed Hitler unilateral power to make laws without asking the Reichstag. If _Triumph of the Will_ had been a total flop, it would not have made an iota of difference in the amount of power Hitler and the Nazis yielded in Germany — they had already grabbed it all. > [@Pricegay](#): > > She did a _lot_ of propaganda for the Nazi regime _Triumph of the Will_ was the only major piece of pro-Nazi propaganda that Riefenstahl did. (And no, I do not consider the documentary _Olympia_ to be a pro-Nazi propaganda piece. To the contrary, it shows black American athlete Jesse Owens and Asian athletes winning at the 1936 Olympics, in contravention to Nazi racial ideals.) The crimes of Jiang Qing and the Gang of Four in leading China’s [Cultural Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_revolution) for ten years were enormous; millions died. No, she didn’t single-handedly lead the Cultural Revolution; neither did Hitler single-handedly lead the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/50 "2005-06-02T08:22:57Z")
I would like to nominate these three pillars of society. \*\*Carla Homolka[/b[ **Susan Smith** **Pamela Smart** Not worst in the world affecting sense but evil on a much more common scale since these were just seemingly normal people down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Sarah\_Woodruff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sarah\_Woodruff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarah_Woodruff)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/51 "2005-06-02T09:19:39Z")
What about Diana Mitford? Vacuous interbred social treacherous parasite who was an ardent admirer of Hitler and subsequently married Oswald Moseley. I honestly can’t understand why she isn’t more roundly condemned today - surely it can’t just be because she was a natural blonde. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/52 "2005-06-02T16:00:02Z")
I’ll second the nomination of Georgia Tann … her crimes were despicable … but let’s not forget her partner in crime, Judge Camille Kelly, who misused the power of her office so thoroughly. Both of these women are stinking blots on the escutcheon of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/53 "2005-06-02T19:46:59Z")
I am sorry to say that I do not know the two women named in the previous post. Off to google, if I have time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/54 "2005-06-03T08:07:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am sorry to say that I do not know the two women named in the previous post. > > Off to google, if I have time. Unbelievable. [Georgia Tann stole some 5,000 babies and sold them for adoption on the black market.](http://freepages.misc.rootsweb.com/~msroots/BMA/TANN1.htm) It sounds to me that Kelly was her accomplice - she was the judge who legally approved most of Tann’s requests to take custody of the children. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/55 "2005-06-03T11:44:51Z")
**Sister Gertrude Mukangango** and **Sister Maria Kisito Mukabutera** have to be up there. They were the nuns convicted of taking part in the massacre of 7,000 refugees hiding in their convent. Being nuns just makes it worse. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm) ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/56 "2005-06-03T11:51:13Z")
**Sister Gertrude Mukangango** and **Sister Maria Kisito Mukabutera** have to be up there. They were the nuns convicted of taking part in the massacre of 7,000 refugees hiding in their convent. Being nuns just makes it worse. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/57 "2005-06-03T14:55:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unbelievable. How unbelievably cruel. How horrid. It is hard to belive that such a system could be so entrenched and not stopped. I have no words at all for the “nuns”–I do wish that the article had included some concrete info. I ahve no doubts that they participated–I guess I am just looking for some type of logic or rationale on their part(there isn’t any, but my mind boggles at what they did). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/58 "2005-06-03T15:35:36Z")
I’ll second **Anita Bryant**. An incredible lot of today’s anti-gay bullshit started with her “Christian values.” Her support of gay bashing and murder is inexcusible. Then she complains in her book about how “the homosexuals got my proposed TV show to be scraped.” No, your own stupidity was responsible for that. Accept the consquences of your actions. I can see why her husband later divorced her. Christian values indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/59 "2005-06-03T15:51:20Z")
Anita Bryant supported _murdering_ gays? Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/60 "2005-06-03T23:47:09Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **Sister Gertrude Mukangango** and **Sister Maria Kisito Mukabutera** have to be up there. They were the nuns convicted of taking part in the massacre of 7,000 refugees hiding in their convent. Being nuns just makes it worse. > > [BBC News | EUROPE | Nuns jailed for genocide role](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1376692.stm) On that note, how about the Magdalene Sisters in Ireland, who basically worked all those poor girls to death because they had been ‘promiscuous’? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354.md?page=4)