# Another "Worst" Thread: 20th-Century Woman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354 "2005-06-01T13:06:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/81 "2005-06-12T21:07:57Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I knew Ayn Rand. Personally. I had several differences with her philosophy then, and have had a great many more since then (and especially with the people who you correctly call “Randroids”). > > She doesn’t need me to defend her, so I won’t, especially in light of our differences. But please don’t lose sight of the things in her work that so many of us find “inspiring.” I know exactly what you mean - I still read _The Fountainhead_ at least once every two years, and find it the most invigorating book I have ever read in my life. That doesn’t change my opinion that Objectivism is a poison meme. If you ever get out to Seattle, drop me a line and I’ll buy you a beer. Sounds like we would have a very interesting conversation. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/82 "2005-06-13T00:45:21Z")
**panache45** , you seriously knew her? Was she as crazy as she seems? I’d nominate her for worst writer of the 20th century, though, worst woman seems like a stretch, especially compared to Imelda Marcos and Elena Ceaucescu. Outside of the US, Ayn Rand isn’t nearly as well known, from what I gather. (I could be wrong on this, though.) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/83 "2005-06-13T08:06:02Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Rand’s philosophy is the underlying motivation behind all Libertarianism and Neo-Conservatism out there. All. All of it. You’re way, way, way exaggerating the influence of Ayn Rand, and ignoring the long history of libertarianism, and the roots of neo-conservatism. > [@Leviosaurus](#): > > The popularization of selfishness as a virtue explains why Americans feel justified in invading foreign countries to set up genocidal dictators, or ally ourselves with other nutcases. Given that Rand was anti-statist and anti-authoritarian, these would both be things she would oppose. Her “virtue of selfishness” was most definitely about the individual, not the state. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/84 "2005-06-13T20:00:38Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > All. All of it. You’re way, way, way exaggerating the influence of Ayn Rand, and ignoring the long history of libertarianism, and the roots of neo-conservatism. Okay. I disagree. > [@](#): > > Given that Rand was anti-statist and anti-authoritarian, these would both be things she would oppose. Her “virtue of selfishness” was most definitely about the individual, not the state. And when the individual takes over the state, that individual does whatever he wants to. Just as all the tycoons in \*Atlas Shrugged \* are allowed to do exactly as they please with their corporations, including shuttering them - the management owes nothing to the workers. Follow the logic, and dictatorships are the logical outcome of Objectivism, and are therefore fine. I’m not going to debate the fine points of Objectivism with you, I find the subject tremendously distasteful. My point was simply that I rate Ayn Rand higher on the list of worst 20th century women then most of the rest of this thread appears to (although Elena Ceaucescu tops my list.) I take it you disagree. If you want to debate Objectivism, I suggest you start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/85 "2005-06-14T11:50:15Z")
Norma McCorvey. The reason is obvious to anyone who knows that an unborn child is still a child. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/86 "2005-06-14T12:58:46Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Norma McCorvey. The reason is obvious to anyone who knows that an unborn child is still a child. If you know this, you also should know that she later came to her senses, and deserves forgiveness. Even if she hadn’t, she wouldn’t rate any mention in this thread at all next to the likes of Elena Ceaucescu and Jiang Qing, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/87 "2005-06-14T15:42:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If you know this, you also should know that she later came to her senses, and deserves forgiveness. Absolutely. I certainly forgive her. However, the facts remain as they are. > [@](#): > > Even if she hadn’t, she wouldn’t rate any mention in this thread at all next to the likes of Elena Ceaucescu and Jiang Qing, IMHO. Agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/88 "2005-06-14T22:23:43Z")
I’d like to throw in a dark horse candidate: Terry Schiavo’s mother. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/89 "2005-06-15T01:12:39Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > I’d like to throw in a dark horse candidate: Terry Schiavo’s mother. That’s pretty cruel. Whether you agreed with her or not, she loved her daughter, and thought she was doing the best thing for her. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/90 "2005-06-15T03:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s pretty cruel. Whether you agreed with her or not, she loved her daughter, and thought she was doing the best thing for her. I wouldn’t put her anywhere near this list, even though she symbolizes (IMO) the wrong side of an issue that is only going to get bigger. But I also stopped giving her the “she loved her daughter” pass somewhere between the time when she started slandering Michael Schiavo and when they released that horrifying tape of Terri’s moaning, acting like she was interacting with her father when she clearly wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/91 "2005-06-15T05:48:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Like I said, I’m not nominating Carson. I think she’s connected with a lot of unnecessary deaths, but it doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense to blame her for something that,when you get right down to it, other people did. I’m reading a book called _The Woman with a Worm in Her Head_, by Dr. Pamela Nagami, an infectious disease specialist. And, during her discussion of malaria, she states that by the time DDT was banned, there were already DDT-resistant “super-mosquitos” in the Third World countries where malaria is endemic. Which calls into question whether the continued use of DDT would have saved those 40 million lives–Rachel Carson or no Rachel Carson. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/92 "2005-06-15T13:54:11Z")
I hope this new century will provide women more opportunities to be as evil as men because, as evil goes, this is a pretty poor kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/93 "2005-06-16T23:38:07Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Elena Ceaucescu tops the list for me, but I think Ayn Rand should rank much higher. Fair enough. I still say that rankings are arbitrary, but Ayn Rand gives an “intellectual” patina to a lot of incredibly unenlightened thinking. Also, when I made my earlier post, I hadn’t read much of the thread. That anyone thinks you can measure evil as a direct arithmetic correlation to number of human deaths is, well, vapid unsophisticated noise. That people would then blame a woman for deaths that happened completely naturally, not due to any human hand, because you disagree with a policy decision not to take extraordinary & environmentally risky measures to save them, & she happened to influence the policymakers before dying–well, that’s freekin’ asinine. Are you going to add to Rachel Carson’s “kill tally” every time someone dies of malaria, for ten thousand years? Rachel Carson was not only the best woman of the 20th Century, but arguably the best vertebrate. Period. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/94 "2005-06-16T23:41:21Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Norma McCorvey. The reason is obvious to anyone who knows that an unborn child is still a child. Hey! She repented! Why not go after the lawyers, also women? Or those two pro-choice women on the Court now? ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/95 "2005-06-17T15:41:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Hey! She repented! Why not go after the lawyers, also women? Or those two pro-choice women on the Court now? As I mentioned earlier, I am fully aware she repented. But if I kill your dog, and then say I’m sorry, your dog is no less dead. Having said that, perhaps my choosing of Norma McCorvey was too simplistic. She didn’t single-handedly cause the legality of abortion. As you said, many others were involved. It’s just an issue that is close to my heart, and I hadn’t seen the issue brought up, so I brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/96 "2005-06-17T15:47:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Rachel Carson was not only the best woman of the 20th Century, but arguably the best vertebrate. Period. I don’t really agree with you on this point, but I love the way you put it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/97 "2005-06-17T16:01:30Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > As I mentioned earlier, I am fully aware she repented. But if I kill your dog, and then say I’m sorry, your dog is no less dead. Having said that, perhaps my choosing of Norma McCorvey was too simplistic. She didn’t single-handedly cause the legality of abortion. As you said, many others were involved. It’s just an issue that is close to my heart, and I hadn’t seen the issue brought up, so I brought it up. The choice is lousy because not everybody “knows” what you say you “know,” and it’s also lousy because she was just a test case. You think nobody else would’ve taken her place? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354.md?page=4)