# Another Worthless Celebrity Anti-Vaxer **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734 "2014-03-14T23:57:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/121 "2014-03-19T16:00:46Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > That hits the nail on the head. > > This is why organizations like Autism Speaks, even though they have distanced themselves from their anti-vax roots, are so insidious and why autistic adults dislike them so much. They reinforce the belief that autism is something to be terrified of and they use language like “fight autism” or “combat autism.” It especially devalues the lives of autistic adults. 😕 Look, autism isn’t an alternative lifestyle choice, it’s a **disorder,** like Down’s syndrome or Alzheimer’s. **Of course** it should be fought. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/122 "2014-03-19T16:10:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Look, autism isn’t an alternative lifestyle choice, it’s a **disorder,** like Down’s syndrome or Alzheimer’s. **Of course** it should be fought. I have to ask you first, **BrainGlutton** , have you given this a lot of thought? Do you know any autistic people and what they think about this? Do you have experience caring or advocating for people with developmental disabilities? I ask only because I don’t want to give you a lecture you might have heard or to get on high dudgeon about an opinion that’s just reflexive. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/123 "2014-03-19T16:20:30Z")
And **BG** , if it is just reflexive, please avail yourself of the writings of the inestimable [Temple Grandin](http://www.templegrandin.com/). But here’s the nutshell: people whose brains work differently–autistic or autism spectrum–are not lesser. They are not damaged, and they are not diseased. Their brains just work differently. Also, it’s _Down_, not _Down’s_. Just to be persnickety. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/124 "2014-03-19T16:32:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And **BG** , if it is just reflexive, please avail yourself of the writings of the inestimable [Temple Grandin](http://www.templegrandin.com/). But here’s the nutshell: people whose brains work differently–autistic or autism spectrum–are not lesser. They are not damaged, and they are not diseased. Their brains just work differently. > > Also, it’s _Down_, not _Down’s_. Just to be persnickety. All of this. When a person has cancer, if you fight the cancer what remains is the person. If we could fight Alzheimer’s and reverse the damage, what would be left would be the original person. Suppose we can fight autism. What we’re left with afterwards is…this is a trick question. There is no non-autistic person inside that would be left over. Most autistic people and people with Down Syndrome will also tell you that they are grateful that, if they were given the chance, their parents did not terminate them in the womb. Observe how this might be different if, say, we could interview someone with Tay Sachs. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/125 "2014-03-19T17:44:51Z")
There actually is a late-onset version of Tay-Sachs. People who have suffered from it usually indicate they find their lives worthwhile and are glad to be alive for the most part. This is consistent with numerous studies showing that the disabled have a far, far more positive view of their lives than the non-disabled viewing the disabled. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/126 "2014-03-19T17:51:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The moron is also talking about just death from measles - as if the complications might not be horrific as well. Among the possible complications are pneumonia, ear infections (which could potentially damage hearing), blindness, and what you might as well call “brain rot” - it’s a progressive and ultimately fatal degeneration of the brain and nervous system. The reason we don’t have epidemics is because 1) not everyone is an idiot and a lot of kids are still immunized and 2) we routinely quarantine the ill, minimizing transmission. > > We _could_ forever eliminate this disease, except for bozos who won’t get their kids vaccinated. It makes me very angry. I post on another website where there’s a woman whose daughter contracted measles before she was old enough to be immunized, and later in childhood developed SSPE (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis) and died when she was about 20. Imagine a kid with Alzheimer’s, and this is what you get. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/127 "2014-03-19T17:57:20Z")
I will say that I wouldn’t have a problem with autism being cured if it meant nobody was like this. I’m going to step out on a limb and say that I personally believe that people like this should be institutionalized as soon as the diagnosis and prognosis are certain, but I also know it’s a decision that’s very difficult to make, and chances are, any decent facility is unaffordable by most people. > **[Planet autism](https://www.salon.com/2003/09/27/autism_8/)** > > Last summer, a man in California shot his 27-year-old autistic son to death and then shot himself. I understand why. When the comments were still up, one person observed that the writer did not express any love for his daughter or joy in her companionship, and this is true so please be forewarned. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/128 "2014-03-19T18:06:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There actually is a late-onset version of Tay-Sachs. People who have suffered from it usually indicate they find their lives worthwhile and are glad to be alive for the most part. > > This is consistent with numerous studies showing that the disabled have a far, far more positive view of their lives than the non-disabled viewing the disabled. I had no idea. I picked Tay Sachs because off the top of my head, I thought that was a condition so inhospitable to life and so lethal by a young age that no one would have chosen life under those circumstances. I absolutely stand corrected and appreciate the information. It is indeed consistent with my broader point. A great deal of money goes into genetic research for autism. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is certainly grey because it raises the spectre of widespread selective termination. Before we had our son, we had a full genetic panel fetal neck exam, etc. At the time it would have been a no-brainer for us to have terminated a fetus we knew had Down or some other disability. We would think much more carefully about that choice now. I would never begrudge anyone who did choose to terminate for any reason, it is just that we would find that choice much more difficult now that we have a much richer idea of how disabled people feel about their own lives. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/129 "2014-03-19T18:06:35Z")
Well, yes, for people THAT disabled institutionalization might be the kindest thing all around, rather than leaving them in the 24/7 care of parents (or maybe just one, as lots of divorces happen over this sort of thing) who don’t have adequate resources to deal with that level of difficulty. On the other hand, not all autistic people are as disabled as all that. Now, kids with the the late-onset chronic encephalopathy from measles… THEY eventually wind up like that… then get worse… then die. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/130 "2014-03-19T18:10:25Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I will say that I wouldn’t have a problem with autism being cured if it meant nobody was like this. I’m going to step out on a limb and say that I personally believe that people like this should be institutionalized as soon as the diagnosis and prognosis are certain, but I also know it’s a decision that’s very difficult to make, and chances are, any decent facility is unaffordable by most people. > > [http://www.salon.com/2003/09/27/autism\_8/](http://www.salon.com/2003/09/27/autism_8/) > > When the comments were still up, one person observed that the writer did not express any love for his daughter or joy in her companionship, and this is true so please be forewarned. It’s an especially difficult decision because severely autistic people are so vulnerable to abuse by caregivers. A recent story of an adult autistic man [whose caregivers branded him with a heated potato masher](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/autistic-man-branded-group-home-worker-article-1.1348706) comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/131 "2014-03-19T21:49:33Z")
Friend posted this on Facebook; [How do vaccines cause Autism. How do vaccines cause autism? See exactly what the science says.](http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/132 "2014-03-19T22:15:22Z")
Much to my regret, that never gets old. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/133 "2014-03-19T23:06:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Friend posted this on Facebook; > > [How do vaccines cause Autism. > How do vaccines cause autism? See exactly what the science says.](http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/) Awesome. Fucking awesome. (Needs the disclaimer from HowDoesHomeopathyWork: “If you notice any mistakes or errors on this website, please email us and we will publish a correction. Please note that corrections will not be accepted unless accompanied by robust, peer-reviewed, scientific data.” Seriously though. LOL) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/134 "2014-03-19T23:16:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I have to ask you first, **BrainGlutton** , have you given this a lot of thought? Do you know any autistic people and what they think about this? Do you have experience caring or advocating for people with developmental disabilities? I ask only because I don’t want to give you a lecture you might have heard or to get on high dudgeon about an opinion that’s just reflexive. I may not have said something like this, but I’d appreciate if you’d educate some of us, because while I see that this is commonly a thing talked about, I don’t really “get it”. I don’t really understand how to decouple autism (at least, autism spectrum disorders that are on the nastier side) from a mental disorder, something to be combated or corrected. Then again, my understanding of what autism is is somewhat questionable as well. Either way, any way you deem fit to help educate me, I’d be delighted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/135 "2014-03-20T00:01:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, yes, for people THAT disabled institutionalization might be the kindest thing all around, rather than leaving them in the 24/7 care of parents (or maybe just one, as lots of divorces happen over this sort of thing) who don’t have adequate resources to deal with that level of difficulty. > > On the other hand, not all autistic people are as disabled as all that. > > Now, kids with the the late-onset chronic encephalopathy from measles… THEY eventually wind up like that… then get worse… then die. The vast majority of autistic people are not like that. Most of them are high-functioning enough to live in the community, support themselves, and in many cases live a relatively normal life. I personally believe that the worst things that can happen to a person and their family is schizophrenia and severe bipolar disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/136 "2014-03-20T00:22:44Z")
These days even a lot of schizophrenics and bipolar people can be helped. It’s not at all easy, but I’ve known a few of both who were reasonably functional. Like a lot of things there is a range of how badly affected an individual is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/137 "2014-03-20T01:00:30Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I have to ask you first, **BrainGlutton** , have you given this a lot of thought? Do you know any autistic people and what they think about this? Do you have experience caring or advocating for people with developmental disabilities? I ask only because I don’t want to give you a lecture you might have heard or to get on high dudgeon about an opinion that’s just reflexive. [shrug] Wiki calls [classic autism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism) a “disorder” – and, all three conditions on the [autism spectrum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum) “neurodevelopmental disorders.” This is honestly the first I’ve ever heard of any dissent on the point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/138 "2014-03-20T01:02:29Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > All of this. > > When a person has cancer, if you fight the cancer what remains is the person. If we could fight Alzheimer’s and reverse the damage, what would be left would be the original person. > > Suppose we can fight autism. What we’re left with afterwards is…this is a trick question. There is no non-autistic person inside that would be left over. You could say the same of mental retardation – there is no non-retarded person inside – but it would still be worth curing if possible. The person cured of intellectual disability could begin to learn all the things he/she was previously incapable of comprehending; and likewise with the autistic cured of emotional/social disability. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/139 "2014-03-20T02:22:32Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > He jumps to conclusions about you being a racist > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Ascenray. I don’t think I did anything of the kind. I certainly never said “racist.” Then again, I rarely find that Mean Old Ladies are reliable judges of social interactions. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734/140 "2014-03-20T12:00:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You could say the same of mental retardation – there is no non-retarded person inside – but it would still be worth curing if possible. The person cured of intellectual disability could begin to learn all the things he/she was previously incapable of comprehending; and likewise with the autistic cured of emotional/social disability. This is the first time you have heard any dissent, I presume, because you have not really given this much thought. Autistic Jim Sinclair writes in _Don’t Mourn For Us_: > [@](#): > > Autism is not something a person has, or a ‘shell’ that a person is trapped inside… Autism is a way of being. It is not possible to separate the person from the autism. Therefore, when parents say, ‘I wish my child did not have autism,’ what they’re really saying is, ‘I wish the autistic child did not exist, and I had a different (non-autistic) child instead.’ This is what we hear when you mourn over our existence. This is what we hear when you pray for a cure. This is what we know, when you tell us of your fondest hopes and dreams for us: that your greatest wish is that one day we will cease to be, and strangers you can love will move in behind our faces. While you’re on wiki: [Neurodiversity - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity) See for yourself what the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network thinks of “combating autism”: [http://autisticadvocacy.org/2014/03/stopcombatingme/](http://autisticadvocacy.org/2014/03/stopcombatingme/) > [@](#): > > By naming its primary autism-related legislation the “Combating Autism Act,” Congress devalues the lives of autistic individuals. The purpose federal autism-related activities should not be to “combat” autism but rather to support autistic individuals and their families. We would be glad to work with your office to identify a less stigmatizing name, such as the Autism Community Empowerment Act or the Autism Assistance and Bill of Rights Act. The latter would bring the legislation in line with the Developmental Disabilities Assistance and Bill of Rights Act of 2000. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worthless-celebrity-anti-vaxer/683734.md?page=8)