# Another "Would you abolish the Electoral College" thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670 "2008-10-26T19:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/41 "2008-10-27T03:15:26Z")
To go back to the wyoming example, how many democrats in that state not even bother to vote in the presidential election because they know its a lost cause anyway? Republicans in DC? I would wager a fair number feel this way, and eliminating the EC would actually get more voters out, resulting in a more accurate count. I personally think that small states should not carry extra weight in when voting for president anyway. They already get that in the senate. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/42 "2008-10-27T03:23:20Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I am not a fan of the idea that people who happen to live in smaller States deserve to be over-represented, but I think this is the question that advocates of abolition have to answer. Yes, but you’ve got those big ol’ hands, so counting should be easy for you! 😉 Well, if we had a _decent_ voting machine standard (i.e. local election boards can buy whatever machine they want, but it must conform to nationally set standards to ensure things like easy recounts, and low-risk of errors), then it would’t be a problem to do a recount. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/43 "2008-10-27T03:36:22Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > 538 has Obama with 2% of the vote in Arizona, the state has a total population of almost 6.5 million people, if we figure that 3 million people there vote, 2% of those numbers works out to 6K votes. Its possible to shift an election on that number of votes, but unlikely. However, if he pulls 6K of votes from 10 states where they’d be lost under the EC, that’s 60K votes, and elections can and _do_ get decided on those kinds of numbers all the time. Umm… No, 538 is predicting a 2% chance that Obama is going to win Arizona, not that he will only win 2% of the votes. Nate Silver of 538 is currently projecting that Obama will get 44.2% vs 53.6% for McCain. There is a huge difference between 2% of the vote and 44.2%. Not that that invalidates your basic point. But I thought it should be mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/44 "2008-10-27T03:50:51Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Umm… No, 538 is predicting a 2% chance that Obama is going to win Arizona, not that he will only win 2% of the votes. Nate Silver of 538 is currently projecting that Obama will get 44.2% vs 53.6% for McCain. There is a huge difference between 2% of the vote and 44.2%. > > Not that that invalidates your basic point. But I thought it should be mentioned. Yeah, I figured that I was probably misreading the percentages there, but they made for some handy numbers to illustrate what I was getting at. Still, if its _that_ close in AZ, there exists the possibility that Obama could shift the vote there in favor of himself with a little more effort. (Not unheard of, as Gore _lost_ his home state of TN in 2000, which, in some ways puts him in a _worse_ light than Mondale back in '84 who managed to win his home state, while losing everywhere else in the country except for DC.) ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/45 "2008-10-27T03:52:21Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > If we abolish the electoral college, then by this same reasoning, if the popular vote isn’t particularly close, then no one should bother voting anywhere in the nation. But _some_ years the popular vote will be close. You’ll have to wait a lot longer to find a year in which (A) Alabama (for instance) has some chance of going Democratic and (B) the election isn’t already a total blowout for the Democrats. Even putting that argument aside, I’d favor determining the President by popular vote. Under the current system some states have a higher electoral vote to population ratio than others, which means not every vote carries the same weight. A popular vote system where every vote counts exactly the same seems inherently more democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/46 "2008-10-27T04:04:53Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Not unheard of, as Gore lost his home state of TN in 2000, which, in some ways puts him in a worse light than Mondale back in '84 who managed to win his home state, while losing everywhere else in the country except for DC. That’s not really a fair comparison. Both states were becoming more conservative in Presidential elections during their respective time periods, but TN was accelerating whereas MN was decelerating. There’s only so much you can do to fight a demographic shift. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/47 "2008-10-27T04:16:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > That’s not really a fair comparison. Both states were becoming more conservative in Presidential elections during their respective time periods, but TN was accelerating whereas MN was decelerating. There’s only so much you can do to fight a demographic shift. AFAIK, Gore’s the only Presidential candidate to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/48 "2008-10-27T04:20:20Z")
Do what, lose his home state? That’s not even close to true. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/49 "2008-10-27T04:26:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Do what, lose his home state? That’s not even close to true. Who else lost theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/50 "2008-10-27T04:32:20Z")
[Dozens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major-party_United_States_presidential_candidates_who_lost_their_home_state), such as McGovern, Stevenson, Taft, Roosevelt… ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/51 "2008-10-27T04:36:44Z")
I’m 100% in support of abolishing, and moving to direct popular vote. And, eventually, move on to approval voting. Baby steps, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/52 "2008-10-27T04:39:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > [Dozens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major-party_United_States_presidential_candidates_who_lost_their_home_state), such as McGovern, Stevenson, Taft, Roosevelt… I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/53 "2008-10-27T10:32:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Nobody gives a shit about Wyoming anyway every four years. The only states that matter in presidential races are the ones that could go either way. New York and California are completely ignored by both people on each ticket, except for fundraising; nobody holds rallies there. This argument doesn’t make sense. The EC either has an effect that can counter the weight of a straight popular vote, or it doesn’t. If it does, my statement stands: it at least minimizes the dismissal of WY’s concerns (and mathematically, it does–it’s inarguable). If it does not create this effect, than what exactly is the point again? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/54 "2008-10-27T10:34:14Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > We are talking about local issues. Since they don’t affect the large population centers there is no reason people there need be opposed. On issues that affect everyone then everyone should have an equal say in who will handle them, right? Um, yes, that’s the position of the EC abolishers. That’s not my belief. I think the EC is a nice compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/55 "2008-10-27T13:51:21Z")
While a direct popular vote certainly seems attractive on the face of it (seems fairest) a bit harder look reveals it is not all it is cracked up to be. Our Founding Fathers were no dummies. While not infallible I think one has to look long and hard before undoing what they wrought. Below is a snippet but please read the whole thing at the link before deciding the EC needs to be tossed out. > [@](#): > > James Madison, chief architect of our nation’s electoral college, wanted to protect each citizen against the most insidious tyranny that arises in democracies: the massed power of fellow citizens banded together in a dominant bloc. As Madison explained in The Federalist Papers (Number X), “a well-constructed Union” must, above all else, “break and control the violence of faction,” especially “the superior force of an . . . overbearing majority.” In any democracy, a majority’s power threatens minorities. It threatens their rights, their property, and sometimes their lives. > > A well-designed electoral system might include obstacles to thwart an overbearing majority. But direct, national voting has none. Under raw voting, a candidate has every incentive to woo only the largest bloc-- say, Serbs in Yugoslavia. If a Serb party wins national power, minorities have no prospect of throwing them out; 49 percent will never beat 51 percent. Knowing this, the majority can do as it pleases (lacking other effective checks and balances). But in a districted election, no one becomes president without winning a large number of districts, or “states”- -say, two of the following three: Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia. Candidates thus have an incentive to campaign for non-Serb votes in at least some of those states and to tone down extreme positions–in short, to make elections less risky events for the losers. > > SOURCE: [Math Against Tyranny](http://www.avagara.com/e_c/reference/00012001.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/56 "2008-10-27T14:43:21Z")
Yes, yes, abolish it. Why should a guy in Montana have a vote that weighs more than mine just because he lives in an underpopulated state? Elect the POTUS by direct popular vote, and use [instant-runoff voting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting) to avoid the third-party “spoiler” problem. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/57 "2008-10-27T14:44:35Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Um, yes, that’s the position of the EC abolishers. That’s not my belief. I think the EC is a nice compromise. So you are retracting your previous assertion that there were local issues that would be ignored with a popular vote? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/58 "2008-10-27T14:50:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Below is a snippet but please read the whole thing at the link before deciding the EC needs to be tossed out. Hively’s article is sentimental crap. Worse, it seems designed to deceive people. It’s not true that everyone can have an equal vote under the EC, as I have seen people citing the article claim. Nor is it possible to give everyone to have more electoral power simply by playing with the election mechanism. The voters all ready have ALL of the power so it’s a zero sum game. The only way to empower one set of voters is to disempower another. When Hively gets this simple concept through his brain maybe he can try again. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/59 "2008-10-27T14:52:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > While a direct popular vote certainly seems attractive on the face of it (seems fairest) a bit harder look reveals it is not all it is cracked up to be. > > Our Founding Fathers were no dummies. While not infallible I think one has to look long and hard before undoing what they wrought. > > Below is a snippet but please read the whole thing at the link before deciding the EC needs to be tossed out. Okay, I still vote to abolish it. If the majority votes for it, I say go with it. In the example, \*If a Serb party wins national power, minorities have no prospect of throwing them out; 49 percent will never beat 51 percent. Knowing this, the majority can do as it pleases (lacking other effective checks and balances). \* And? Good, 49 percent will never beat 51 percent. I like the “majority rules” idea. Don’t like it? You’re neither forced to agree with the majority or forced to stay in the USA. We do have effective checks and balances in the process–one being impeachment, another being a new election every 4 years, etc. Really, 1 vote per person. The president is the leader of the national government, ergo his interests should represent the majority of the country. Local issues should be handled by the state or city. Someone mentioned before about having New Yorkers vote for Wyomingite issues. That shouldn’t be an issue, as issues relating only to Wyomingites should be decided by Wyomingites. Federal issues, though, should appeal to the majority – and if that majority happens to be concentrated in our large cities, then so be it. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670/60 "2008-10-27T15:02:40Z")
**atomicbadgerrace** raises a good point. It’s not as if voting for president exists in isolation from the rest of our constitutional system. Nor are we electing an all powerful dictator. There are other institutions and procedures to protect minority rights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-would-you-abolish-the-electoral-college-thread/469670.md?page=4)