# Antarctic colony **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 5, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204 "2024-12-05T15:53:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/41 "2024-12-08T20:17:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Would building the colony into the ice sheet be the way to go? Ice must flow! That ice sheet is]([First complete map of Antarctica ice flow - NASA Science](https://science.nasa.gov/science-research/earth-science/water-energy-cycle/cryosphere/first-complete-map-of-antarctica-ice-flow/)) That ice sheet isn’t sitting still. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/42 "2024-12-08T20:20:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well given wind use I was assuming this would be for storing solar from the summer. Wind would be very difficult in Antarctica for several reasons. > [@DSeid](#): > > The blocks can be of immense size, mass, and arbitrary number. What is limiting scaling it up to the needs of a colony? In theory, that would work. In practice, it would be such a huge amount of machinery, number of blocks, etc. that it wouldn’t be practical. Here’s a good explanation about why we aren’t using gravity storage (other than hydro) in any great amount: > **[Gravity Storage 101, Or Why Pumped Hydro Is The Only Remotely Real Gravity...](https://cleantechnica.com/2024/06/10/gravity-storage-101-or-why-pumped-hydro-is-the-only-remotely-real-gravity-storage/)** > > As a reminder, pumped hydro is the gravity storage solution that actually works, unlike sand, elevators, and hillside rail systems. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/43 "2024-12-08T20:54:52Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > That ice sheet isn’t sitting still. Interesting. Possibly 800 feet annually but “that ice moves by slipping along the ground it rests on” so structuring the surface or submerged into the sheet will both be moving the same. > [@dtilque](#): > > Wind would be very difficult in Antarctica for several reasons. No doubt it would be a technical challenge to design ones for the specific conditions, including temperatures and extreme wind forces. What problems are you thinking that would be insurmountable? > [@dtilque](#): > > In practice, it would be such a huge amount of machinery, number of blocks, etc. that it wouldn’t be practical. Here’s a good explanation about why we aren’t using gravity storage (other than hydro) In point of fact the concept _is_ hydro gravity storage. 🙂 The reason pumped hydro works is that the scale of the hydro moved is sufficient for the task. The challenge would be to engineer a means to move enough mass of ice enough distance to store adequate energy. And the comparison for practical would be to the cost and long term reliability of alternative energy storage options. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/44 "2024-12-08T20:57:14Z")
The biggest problem with an Antarctic colony is that other than a few select locations it’s all glacier ice. There’s nothing to mine, nothing useful as a building material, nothing that can be used to make anything. Not even rock to build with directly, use as filler in concrete, or soil for growing crops in greenhouses. Ice. Drill through the ice you say? Drilling through over 10,000 feet of ice is non-trivial and that’s before you can actually extract anything from the underlying bedrock. How the heck do you prospect for anything through miles of overlying ice? And as mentioned upthread glacier ice flows; inches per year but it flows. This for example defeated [a plan to establish forward nuclear missile bases in Greenland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Iceworm). It also complicates [relying on ground-based transport](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pole_Traverse#) because routes have to be re-graded every season to fill in any newly opened crevasses in the ice. The second biggest problem is energy. The South Pole might be the hardest location on Earth to make a go of solar power, and see above for difficulties in obtaining any mineral sources of energy. There’s just too little to work with. In some respects Mars actually offers a richer bounty for sustaining human settlement. **ETA** : rather than fart around with trying to raise and lower solid blocks of ice as weights, it might be less impractical to add some sort of antifreeze to ice to keep it in liquid form at Antarctic temperatures. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/45 "2024-12-08T21:08:00Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Wind would be very difficult in Antarctica for several reasons. I mean, everything would be very difficult in Antarctica for several reasons. The question is just whether wind is less difficult than other options. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/46 "2024-12-08T21:13:01Z")
Near the shore there is (practically) infinite amount of water – and Antarctica has mountains – assuming one could keep the fluid liquid, are there good locations for pumped “hydro”? There is enough aquatic life in the area to support 10s of millions of penguins, seems you could support quite a few humans based on krill or whatever the lowest practical food chain thing that can be harvested.(penguins apparently taste bad, and may not be the best source). Whales? How about greenhouses on the peninsula? Brian ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/47 "2024-12-08T21:35:46Z")
Yes the peninsula is technically Antarctica, but I feel like that’s cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/48 "2024-12-08T21:43:44Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Little light is not no light. It would require more surface area and energy storage. As others said, you need 6 months of storage to cover winter. That’s impractical unless you synthesize liquid fuels from the excess power generated in summer. Mars has _less_ light, which you can just compensate for with more panels. But its nights are just 12 hours, which current battery tech can handle. So it’s no problem as long as you dust them off from time to time. > [@DSeid](#): > > but lots of bad dust storms to deal with. They’ll reduce solar output, but not to zero. A colony would probably have to curtail industry when the storms are going. But they aren’t going to destroy machinery or cover them with large dunes or anything. > [@DSeid](#): > > Easier to do a rescue from Antarctica than Mars if collapse. Certainly. I’m not claiming that Mars is easier. Just that not _everything_ favors Antarctica. Though **MrDibble** ’s cite of exposed coal seams is interesting. Very _Frostpunk_ to burn coal in the dark winters at your last outpost of civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/49 "2024-12-08T21:47:03Z")
Of course, the only reason you’ll still find exposed coal seams anywhere on Earth is because it’s difficult to extract it for other reasons. If it were easy, we’d already have burned it. But, again, everything is hard in Antarctica, and it’s just a question of what’s less hard. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/50 "2024-12-08T23:20:19Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > UFN > > Sorry, hate to be That Poster. I’m pretty much okay with acronyms that most people can be expected know; it’s my problem if I don’t recognize it and up to me to Google it. So I did, and came up with “Until Further Notice.” > > If that isn’t what UFN means, take pity on an ignoramus and set me straight, please. Sorry in turn to be That Poster myself. Oops on me. Yes, it’s “until further notice”. UFN is such a universal corporate / government bureaucracy term that I don’t even see it as an acronym anymore. It’s simply a word that means roughly “indefinitely” or “forever, most likely”. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/51 "2024-12-08T23:57:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > UFN is such a universal corporate / government bureaucracy term that I don’t even see it as an acronym anymore. I know the feeling well. To me, “SOP” is a word, and I use it automatically. I’m always amazed when people don’t know it but apparently a lot of folks don’t; I think I even asked here on the Dope and few people were familiar with Standard Operating Procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/52 "2024-12-09T00:35:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Nitpick: Biosphere has been working for a few billion years. What didn’t work was Biosphere 2. Which really wasn’t surprising, because it was the first try: You expect your first try at anything to fail, and then you analyze how it failed, fix it, and try again. The funding got cut off before they could really finish the experiment. There was a bit more to it than that. Not the least of which was their duplicity in concealing sneaking in auxiliary items. Had they conducted themselves in a more rigorous scientific manner, they might have got additional funding. But in addition to the bio part of it not working, there was the issue of infighting. This turned out to be a bigger problem than originally assumed. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/53 "2024-12-09T01:04:52Z")
Biosphere 2 failed for many reasons. But what _really_ failed technologically was creating a closed cycle _atmosphere_. Which certainly is a cautionary tale for e.g. Mars colonies. But is utterly irrelevant to Antarctic colonies. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/54 "2024-12-09T01:23:15Z")
The Norwegians tried it, or was it the crazy Swedes? It didn’t work out so well due to an unexpected visitor. Just ask MacReady and the crew (assuming they lived). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/55 "2024-12-09T01:32:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Biosphere 2 failed for many reasons. But what _really_ failed technologically was creating a closed cycle _atmosphere_. Which certainly is a cautionary tale for e.g. Mars colonies. But is utterly irrelevant to Antarctic colonies. If a Mars colony is mass producing liquid oxygen in quantities sufficient to fuel return trips to Earth, I presume that imperfect closed cycling would be tolerable in the mid-term. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/56 "2024-12-09T02:18:12Z")
Biosphere 2 was a weird attempt at replicating Earth’s biosphere at a small scale. It was sorta bound to fail, and doesn’t say much about actually engineering a closed system. If you were really serious about it, you’d use genetically engineered algae for a whole lot of stuff, especially oxygen and food production. And you certainly wouldn’t bother with… chickens and goats. A self-sustaining colony is going to be vegetarian until it grows by a _lot_. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/57 "2024-12-09T02:40:34Z")
I dunno; chickens are pretty sustainable. They’re a good method for turning human-inedible food scraps into human-edible high-quality protein. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/58 "2024-12-09T02:59:19Z")
TWO good methods, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/59 "2024-12-09T04:40:08Z")
Chickens would probably be the first vertebrate I’d add, but most food scrap is gonna go into the composter at first. And I suspect insect protein is going to be the most efficient animal source for a while. A small colony just doesn’t have much room for complicated feedstock loops. Too much inefficiency and too much exposure to risk in case something goes wrong. When you get to 100k people, then you can add chickens. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204/60 "2024-12-09T07:49:11Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The biggest problem with an Antarctic colony is that other than a few select locations it’s all glacier ice. The [Transantarctic Mountains](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transantarctic_Mountains) present more than “a few” locations. We only really know of coal and iron ore resources, but that’s _only_ because mineral exploration in Antarctica is banned. Given its geological variability, there’s absolutely no reason Antarctica wouldn’t have all the mineral resources of every other continent (except bauxite). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/antarctic-colony/1011204.md?page=4)