# Anthrax letters -- Are you kidding me? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532 "2008-08-01T19:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/21 "2008-08-01T23:59:26Z")
> [@JayJay](#): > > I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. I do believe that the Bush administration had no scruples whatsoever about using any and every opportunity that presented itself to push their agenda on war with Iraq (an agenda that was in place long before 9/11) forward, despite the fact that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with either 9/11 or the anthrax letters. You must be reading a history I don’t remember. I don’t remember the Bush administration tying the Anthrax attack to Iraq. And in fact, very early on the main suspect was Steven Hatfill, an American bioweapons researcher. If anything, the Bush Administration deserves credit for NOT using the Anthrax letters to inflame anti-muslim sentiment. After all, no one would blame them if they made that assumption - the attacks happened a week after 9/11, and contained letters with phrases like “Death To America” and “Death to Israel”. But only 2 weeks later, the Secretary of HHS downplayed the terrorism aspect, and just over a month after the first attacks Tom Ridge gave a press conference where he announced that the Anthrax was the ‘Ames Strain’, which meant it probably came from a U.S. lab. A few months later the government announced that Steven Hatfill was a ‘person of interest’ in the case. You’ve got to stretch pretty far to see this as either a Bush administration conspiracy to build support for war, OR to see the administration being anything but completely open and honest about what they knew. If anything, I’d say they attempted to downplay what looked like another Muslim terrorist attack, to prevent hysteria from spreading. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/22 "2008-08-02T01:15:31Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] I don’t know where you get that. There are no faster-than-lightspeed bodies, but that doesn’t mean there’s no law against traveling faster than lightspeed. [/QUOTE] That’s two entirely different definitions of “law”. One is a universal constant and the other is a manmade piece of legislation. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > You must be reading a history I don’t remember. I don’t remember the Bush administration tying the Anthrax attack to Iraq. And in fact, very early on the main suspect was Steven Hatfill, an American bioweapons researcher. [You’re right](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-anthraxtimeline,0,6176785.story). I was misremembering what happened at the time. I retract anything I wrote that suggested that they used the anthrax letters to point to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/23 "2008-08-02T01:52:06Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Who is Irving? [/QUOTE] [The 142nd-fastest gun in the West](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U077BiDMmPE). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/24 "2008-08-02T01:57:09Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] That’s two entirely different definitions of “law”. One is a universal constant and the other is a manmade piece of legislation. [/QUOTE] Would you care to borrow a comb? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/25 "2008-08-02T02:01:25Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] I retract anything I wrote that suggested that they used the anthrax letters to point to Iraq. [/QUOTE] There’s [this](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92270&page=1): > [@](#): > > **Troubling Anthrax Additive Found; Atta Met Iraqi** > _Tests Find Laced Anthrax; Atta Met Iraqi_ > W A S H I N G T O N, Oct. 29 > > A second test of the anthrax-laced letter sent to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle points to the presence of a troubling chemical additive, sources tell ABCNEWS. > > MORE INVESTIGATIVE NEWS: • Atta Met Iraqi Official in Prague > > Four well-placed and separate sources told ABCNEWS that initial tests detected bentonite, though the White House initially said the chemical was not found. > > The first battery of tests, conducted at Ft. Detrick, Md., and elsewhere, discovered the anthrax spores were treated with the substance, which keeps the tiny particles floating in the air by preventing them from sticking together — making it more likely that they could be inhaled. > > The inhaled form on anthrax is far more deadly than the skin form. > > As far as is known, only one country, Iraq, has used bentonite to produce biological weapons, but officials caution that the presence of the chemical alone does not constitute firm evidence of Iraqi involvement. > > White House spokesman Ari Fleischer had denied that bentonite was found on the letters, but another senior White House official backed off Fleischer’s comments, saying “at this point” there does not appear to be bentonite. The story also goes into the bogus Atta-Iraq connection at some length. _Someone_ was selling Iraq to ABC. ETA: the ‘October 29’ in the dateline was 10/29/2001. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/26 "2008-08-02T02:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Would you care to borrow a comb? [/QUOTE] That is NOT splitting hairs. There is a huge difference between legislative laws and natural laws. Legislative laws are created by human beings to fill a need. If no one ever stole, theft wouldn’t need to be illegal. If no one ever killed anyone else, murder wouldn’t need to be illegal. If no one ever tried to buy influence by donating campaign money, campaign finance laws wouldn’t be needed. Natural laws just ARE. They weren’t created by anyone…they’re just the way the universe works. The only connection they have to humans is that humans have discerned and described them. Humans definitely did not create them. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/27 "2008-08-02T02:08:11Z")
AP: [Answers in Anthrax Case May Have Died With Suicide](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/anthrax_scientist_years_without_answers) Yessir. Wrapped up real neat like. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/28 "2008-08-02T02:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=vibrotronica] AP: [Answers in Anthrax Case May Have Died With Suicide](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/anthrax_scientist_years_without_answers) Yessir. Wrapped up real neat like. Nothing to see here. Move along, citizens. [/QUOTE] If you are, as you appear to be, positing a government cover up, exactly what do you think is being covered up? What do you think the government’s involvement was in the Anthrax attacks, and to what end? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/29 "2008-08-02T02:28:28Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] That is NOT splitting hairs. There is a huge difference between legislative laws and natural laws. Legislative laws are created by human beings to fill a need. If no one ever stole, theft wouldn’t need to be illegal. If no one ever killed anyone else, murder wouldn’t need to be illegal. If no one ever tried to buy influence by donating campaign money, campaign finance laws wouldn’t be needed. Natural laws just ARE. They weren’t created by anyone…they’re just the way the universe works. The only connection they have to humans is that humans have discerned and described them. Humans definitely did not create them. [/QUOTE] Uhhh, my post was _supposed_ to be translated as “Whooooossshhh!” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/30 "2008-08-02T02:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Uhhh, my post was _supposed_ to be translated as “Whooooossshhh!” [/QUOTE] :smack: Sorry! I was sitting here thinking, “I don’t remember **kaylasdad99** being so dense!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/31 "2008-08-02T02:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] If you are, as you appear to be, positing a government cover up, exactly what do you think is being covered up? [/QUOTE] Failure to catch the terrorists after almost seven years? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/32 "2008-08-02T02:50:26Z")
I’m not **vibrotronica** , but . . . [QUOTE=Miller] If you are, as you appear to be, positing a government cover up, exactly what do you think is being covered up? [/quote] Rather obviously, using anthrax on it’s own citizens. That would hardly something you’d want to become publicly believed. [QUOTE=Miller] What do you think the government’s involvement was in the Anthrax attacks, and to what end? [/QUOTE] A Republican attempt to kill Democrats, when they didn’t yet control Congress, and whip up fear of terrorism. Notably, the latter part worked regardless of who was behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/33 "2008-08-02T02:51:30Z")
I don’t claim to have firsthand knowledge of anything except for this. [QUOTE=acsenray] But wait, one more detail. Members of the media were told on the sly by unidentified government officials that they should start taking cipro (an anthrax remedy). [/QUOTE] I happen to have a friend who works for the media (ABC, no less) who was in the Washington bureau, who was exposed to that same white powder. “Holy shit! The letter tested positive for anthrax.” (Mass phone calls to personal physicians, googling for anthrax and general panic.) “The treatment is Cipro.” “Let’s go!!!” Anyone who says there were warnings “by unidentified government officials” to “start taking cipro” is either full of shit or a flat out liar. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/34 "2008-08-02T03:03:44Z")
Sam Stone, allow me to [refresh your memory](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/01/mccain-anthrax-iraq/). > [@Senator John McCain](#): > > ``` > LETTERMAN: How are things going in Afghanistan now? > > MCCAIN: I think we’re doing fine …. I think we’ll do fine. The second phase — if I could just make one, very quickly — the second phase is Iraq. There is some indication, and I don’t have the conclusions, but some of this anthrax may — and I emphasize may — have come from Iraq. > > LETTERMAN: Oh is that right? > > MCCAIN: If that should be the case, that’s when some tough decisions are gonna have to be made. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/35 "2008-08-02T03:08:27Z")
John McCain was part of the Bush administration in 2001? News to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/36 "2008-08-02T03:36:41Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] There’s [this](http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92270&page=1): The story also goes into the bogus Atta-Iraq connection at some length. _Someone_ was selling Iraq to ABC. ETA: the ‘October 29’ in the dateline was 10/29/2001. [/QUOTE] Let me get this straight: An unnamed source of ABC news says there was Bentonite in the Anthrax, but the White House denies it. This is somehow evidence that the White House was pushing the Iraq angle? This conspiracy is really, really weak. You guys can do better than this. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/37 "2008-08-02T04:15:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Let me get this straight: An unnamed source of ABC news says there was Bentonite in the Anthrax, but the White House denies it. This is somehow evidence that the White House was pushing the Iraq angle? [/QUOTE] To be fair to **RTF** , that does look like the sort of plausible deniability that was used in a lot of White House leaks: the official spokes person (Fleischer) makes a public denial that the administration believes that there is any involvement, then “a senior White House official” replants the seed while not speaking for the record. That said, I also remember no serious effort by the Administration to make an anthrax-Iraq connection a serious issue (and it certainly was not raised again when they were pumping out the lies to get us to invade at a time when a reference to an actual link to an real attack would have given them a much more secure argument. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/38 "2008-08-02T04:18:08Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Don’t tell me what I know, especially when you’re wrong. “I don’t believe in conspiracy theories” is pretty well accepted to mean “I don’t believe in bigfoot, UFOs, JFK, 9/11, etc.” [/QUOTE] …and whatever issue it is the person wants to sweep away with a culturally accepted ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/39 "2008-08-02T04:23:24Z")
My trouble is that my level of trust in the government is so low that when I heard first heard the story this morning, the thought flashed through my head that the Irving had committed suicide for unrelated reasons and the FBI was going to hang the anthrax thing on him now that hew was gone. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532/40 "2008-08-02T04:24:42Z")
Glenn Greenwald has a blog entry over at [salon.com](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/) about why this is so fishy. With no cites of my own and not a very good recollection of the incidents, I’m in no position to comment on it one way or another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anthrax-letters-are-you-kidding-me/458532.md?page=3)